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Home Generators
- Thread starter DAP
- Start date
Tell us more.
The 2 big questions are:
What's your budget?
What all do you want/need to run?
Depending on how fast you need your sump pump back up and running, you may want to consider an inverter. I keep one handy for my woodstove fan since it could get dangerously hot before I have a chance to connect my generator. For everything else, I can, and normally do, wait awhile to see if the power comes back on before getting the generator out.
The 2 big questions are:
What's your budget?
What all do you want/need to run?
Depending on how fast you need your sump pump back up and running, you may want to consider an inverter. I keep one handy for my woodstove fan since it could get dangerously hot before I have a chance to connect my generator. For everything else, I can, and normally do, wait awhile to see if the power comes back on before getting the generator out.
DAP
New member
I don't think I need to get the whole house up and running. I DID lose a sump pump during a massive January rainstorm and almost flooded out the boiler.
So ... I realize it might also come in handy for some remote use of electrical tools, chargers, etc.
Not exactly sure, but I think the budget is between 4 and 600 or so.
So ... I realize it might also come in handy for some remote use of electrical tools, chargers, etc.
Not exactly sure, but I think the budget is between 4 and 600 or so.
If you have a reliable tractor then I'd get a PTO Generator. Otherwise you should be able to get 5000-7000 (+ surge) Watt generator for $600. Shop around.
I put in my own transfer/by-pass panel. I bought some kit at Home Depot and just followed the instructions. Seemed pretty easy.
I've seen some whole home by-pass switches that look pretty easy to install.
In Oregon some of the power companies will actually install the by-pass/transfer switch for you for a reasonable price. I think they want to prevent their line operators from getting zapped by bad wiring jobs. Check with your local power co.
I put in my own transfer/by-pass panel. I bought some kit at Home Depot and just followed the instructions. Seemed pretty easy.
I've seen some whole home by-pass switches that look pretty easy to install.
In Oregon some of the power companies will actually install the by-pass/transfer switch for you for a reasonable price. I think they want to prevent their line operators from getting zapped by bad wiring jobs. Check with your local power co.
OK,
The price range provided brings up some thoughts.
First, I don't think you'll be able to get a Honda or other top-line generator with a decent output (in watts) for that price range. Although they're very nice, for standby power as opposed to daily use I personally would get a Coleman (or similar) and get a higher watt output.
My findings are that pricing is about $100 per 1000w of output in the Coleman range of generators. A 5000w can be found for around $500.
A transfer switch will set you back so I'm assuming your approach is to go without one. Are you going to connect directly to the house and throw the main and several other breakers or are you just running cords to the generator itself?
Is a PTO driven generator an option? Price per watt is much less than a stand-alone.
Besides the sump pump, what else do you want/need to run? Fridge, any other freezers? Do you have well water? Does your septic have any pumps for discharge (don't run the well unless the means to discharge the water is taken care of as well).
I'm just trying to figure out your needs... For single items (e.g. a power tool or sump pump), I'm still wondering if some smaller units may be better. As already noted, I like inverters as they're portable, no noise and can be carried directly to where you need them. Connected to a deep-cycle marine battery, you can also get several hours of use. Maybe (1) 2500 or 3000 watt gas generator and (1) 2000 watt inverter with battery would work for you.
The price range provided brings up some thoughts.
First, I don't think you'll be able to get a Honda or other top-line generator with a decent output (in watts) for that price range. Although they're very nice, for standby power as opposed to daily use I personally would get a Coleman (or similar) and get a higher watt output.
My findings are that pricing is about $100 per 1000w of output in the Coleman range of generators. A 5000w can be found for around $500.
A transfer switch will set you back so I'm assuming your approach is to go without one. Are you going to connect directly to the house and throw the main and several other breakers or are you just running cords to the generator itself?
A thought there is portability. I'd hate to have to grab a 5kw or larger for remote work.... they're just to heavy.DAP said:
Is a PTO driven generator an option? Price per watt is much less than a stand-alone.
Besides the sump pump, what else do you want/need to run? Fridge, any other freezers? Do you have well water? Does your septic have any pumps for discharge (don't run the well unless the means to discharge the water is taken care of as well).
I'm just trying to figure out your needs... For single items (e.g. a power tool or sump pump), I'm still wondering if some smaller units may be better. As already noted, I like inverters as they're portable, no noise and can be carried directly to where you need them. Connected to a deep-cycle marine battery, you can also get several hours of use. Maybe (1) 2500 or 3000 watt gas generator and (1) 2000 watt inverter with battery would work for you.
I think I got my Coleman 5500/8500 generator 3 years ago for around $500 (display unit plus a 10% discount) at Home Depot. It runs the well, hot water heater, and powers the basement ( our house came with a basement suite with kitchen). My transfer panel never seems too loaded even with the hot water heater and well pump running at the same time.
I think the transfer panel was $200-300 but can't remember. I can switch on/off individual circuits which is kind of nice.
Harbour Freight and Northern Tool both have a good selection of generators (including pto) and by-pass/transfer switches.
I think Generac has a wattage calculator on their web site for calculating what you need.
I think the PTO generators are nice because you can get more watts for less money. I think you need at least 25hp at the PTO for a 10KW generator but it may be more. So if you just have a small tractor then you may be limited to the size of generator.
There's other stuff to consider as far as the quality of the electricity that is generated though.
I have an 2000/4000 Watt inverter and a Marine Battery on trickle-charge too.
Of course, now that I'm all set up - the power hasn't gone out very often.
I think the transfer panel was $200-300 but can't remember. I can switch on/off individual circuits which is kind of nice.
Harbour Freight and Northern Tool both have a good selection of generators (including pto) and by-pass/transfer switches.
I think Generac has a wattage calculator on their web site for calculating what you need.
I think the PTO generators are nice because you can get more watts for less money. I think you need at least 25hp at the PTO for a 10KW generator but it may be more. So if you just have a small tractor then you may be limited to the size of generator.
There's other stuff to consider as far as the quality of the electricity that is generated though.
I have an 2000/4000 Watt inverter and a Marine Battery on trickle-charge too.
Of course, now that I'm all set up - the power hasn't gone out very often.
Take a look at this type of transfer switch:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=200321033&R=200321033
This is a listing from Northern Tool, but I'm sure that you can pick them up locally. They have many different types and configurations.
They are made for just your situation. You can control six circuits with the switch listed.
The switches are normally set to "Line" position. If you loose power, you plug in your generator and set the switches to the "Gen" position and power (in this case) six circuits with the generator.
I used one of these for many years before we moved. The new house looses the electric a lot more than we used to at the old house so that I now have a standby generator with an automatic transfer switch.
I you know anything about electric, the switch will take about two hours to install. It comes prewired with all of the pigtails needed in a piece of BX (Greenfield) cable that connects to your breaker panel box.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=200321033&R=200321033
This is a listing from Northern Tool, but I'm sure that you can pick them up locally. They have many different types and configurations.
They are made for just your situation. You can control six circuits with the switch listed.
The switches are normally set to "Line" position. If you loose power, you plug in your generator and set the switches to the "Gen" position and power (in this case) six circuits with the generator.
I used one of these for many years before we moved. The new house looses the electric a lot more than we used to at the old house so that I now have a standby generator with an automatic transfer switch.
I you know anything about electric, the switch will take about two hours to install. It comes prewired with all of the pigtails needed in a piece of BX (Greenfield) cable that connects to your breaker panel box.
keybal said:
That's the same style I have. I think you want to get one that is sized to your generator and electrical needs.
There are also ones that do the whole house. Basically, it is up to you to turn off all the extraneous electrical appliances and only run what your generator can handle. I think the transfer switch above is a little nicer and and forces you to plan your requirements in advance.
Our house, has two electrical panels. So it was easier to just patch into the basement one as it is in the garage. The main-floor one is inside the house which makes running the power cord to the generator a much bigger hassle.
Not exactly a recommended option, but if you are only looking at 5KW [40X120 or 20X240....and combination loads within] and only temporary:
A male plug for your generator on a 10 gage 3 wire cord, on the other end wire a male end for your dryer, stove, or welder outlet. Make sure the generator hots go to hot, and the neutral to neutral [or ground, in this case double check that your main box has the neutral and ground wired together somewhere, also it should be a good connection and at least 10 gage]. Alternativly could run two 110 lines to 20A outlets if the generator has the 110s on opposite hots....use a polarized plug on each end and be sure your house isn't wired "backward".
THROW THE MAIN and the rest of the breakers before pluging into the dead side first, then the generator. Turn on the double breaker now acting as the main [dryer, stove.....] Now turn the breakers on as you see the effects of the added loads [this part can be skipped if you already know which ones you want running].
Have fun! If you burn your house down.....I didn't give you this idea [it does work though]
A male plug for your generator on a 10 gage 3 wire cord, on the other end wire a male end for your dryer, stove, or welder outlet. Make sure the generator hots go to hot, and the neutral to neutral [or ground, in this case double check that your main box has the neutral and ground wired together somewhere, also it should be a good connection and at least 10 gage]. Alternativly could run two 110 lines to 20A outlets if the generator has the 110s on opposite hots....use a polarized plug on each end and be sure your house isn't wired "backward".
THROW THE MAIN and the rest of the breakers before pluging into the dead side first, then the generator. Turn on the double breaker now acting as the main [dryer, stove.....] Now turn the breakers on as you see the effects of the added loads [this part can be skipped if you already know which ones you want running].
Have fun! If you burn your house down.....I didn't give you this idea [it does work though]
Junkman
Extra Super Moderator
In some localities, I have been told, that if the linemen hear a generator running they will stop what they are doing and check out the unit to make sure that there is a properly installed master disconnect switch. If they find that there is no properly installed switch, they will pull the meter and disconnect the service lines from the house. Then to get service reconnected, you will have to bring the entire home up to present day standards and install the proper disconnect switch. I know of no instance where this has happened, but I was told about it by two different unrelated people. Seems that the power companies are fed up with illegal generator hook ups that endanger the lineman's lives while making repairs. Has anyone else heard about this tactic by the utilities?????????
Yes. Happened frequently after the hurricanes. Utility workes came from all over North America (thanks again, guys) and had thousands of reconnects to make. They didn't have time to fool around. Other problems: my next door neighbor's service mast (where the overhead lines from the transformer come into the house) was bent in hurricane Wilma this year. The utility workers (from Rhode Island, I believe) simply took the service line down before they restored power to the transformers. My neighbor then had to get an electrician out to make sure the service mast wiring was OK, then they came back out and connected him.
Haven't heard of that one, but I hear they get a pretty good chuckle about idiots getting their generator fried!
Even funnier, I heard [not sure about the acuracy of the source on this though]that between frying itself on roque loads - even before the power is restored -and running out oil ect. a good percentage of home-owner units don't make it past their "maiden voyage." How is that said? Make it idiot proof and they'll build dumber idiots?
:StickOutT
Even funnier, I heard [not sure about the acuracy of the source on this though]that between frying itself on roque loads - even before the power is restored -and running out oil ect. a good percentage of home-owner units don't make it past their "maiden voyage." How is that said? Make it idiot proof and they'll build dumber idiots?
:StickOutTOkeeDon said:
It's not the connection that isn't safe, it's that it's so simple idiots do it not realizing they wired wrong or to very under-rated wires [remember, the ground is often the smallest wire...not to mention completely neglected until something goes wrong].
Last fall we had a pretty good power blip; I think more people fried appliances and generators wiring directly to the boxes than ad hoc. Either way it has to be done with a little common sense!
What typically caused the problems here was that someone would turn the main breakers back on to find out if power had been restored, yet. Then, they would walk away and leave them on. When power was restored, the spike would set the generator on fire. Most of the generators have their fuel right on top. If the generators were too close to the house (most were), goodbye house.
I used extension cords. They can be almost as bad if they are undersized, but at least the generator's circit breaker usually blows. I used 10 gauge cords into the house, then split and used 12 gauge cords to the family room, kitchen and office. Finally, I used breaker-protected power strips at the ends of the cords. It was inconvenient but realtively safe.
We were without power for 9 days after Frances, 7 days after Jeanne, and 4 days after Wilma.
I used extension cords. They can be almost as bad if they are undersized, but at least the generator's circit breaker usually blows. I used 10 gauge cords into the house, then split and used 12 gauge cords to the family room, kitchen and office. Finally, I used breaker-protected power strips at the ends of the cords. It was inconvenient but realtively safe.
We were without power for 9 days after Frances, 7 days after Jeanne, and 4 days after Wilma.
Don,
The electrician has a separate box outside of where the power comes into my house where my generator is hooked up. I opted not to go with a permanent automatic whole house setup. With my setup they have, not only does the main have to be shut off, but also each box feeding the 3 separate areas, 200 amp house, 200 amp pool house, 200 amp barn, before the limited generator circuits can be energized. They are all thrown from outside, per code. Heck, they all had to be able to be thrown while standing in the same spot per code.
The electrician has a separate box outside of where the power comes into my house where my generator is hooked up. I opted not to go with a permanent automatic whole house setup. With my setup they have, not only does the main have to be shut off, but also each box feeding the 3 separate areas, 200 amp house, 200 amp pool house, 200 amp barn, before the limited generator circuits can be energized. They are all thrown from outside, per code. Heck, they all had to be able to be thrown while standing in the same spot per code.
My system is a bit different than Dargo's system but it sounds similar. My utiltiy disconnect/switchover is built into my generator sub-panel. When the power goes out, I go over to my sub-panel (which is located next to my main panel) and flip one switch. That switch disconnects me from the utility grid and it prevents backfeeding of power throught the neutral (?) wire. The sub-panel is then powered by the generator. Like Dargo, I did not opt to buy an automatic system. When I installed my system the auto systems were not as common as they are today.
My brother has a totally different arrangement. He has a 6500 watt portable generator and he has an exterior plug on his house. In a power failure, he moves his generator outside, plugs it into the house with a special plug (odd looking, never seen one like it) and then flips a utility bypass switch that is similar to mine. Since his generator is outside the house, there is a heavy duty anchor point built into his brick wall to chain the generator to the house so it can't be stolen.
In both my brothers case, and mine, there is a utility disconnect that prevents backfeeding (code in our area).
My brother has a totally different arrangement. He has a 6500 watt portable generator and he has an exterior plug on his house. In a power failure, he moves his generator outside, plugs it into the house with a special plug (odd looking, never seen one like it) and then flips a utility bypass switch that is similar to mine. Since his generator is outside the house, there is a heavy duty anchor point built into his brick wall to chain the generator to the house so it can't be stolen.
In both my brothers case, and mine, there is a utility disconnect that prevents backfeeding (code in our area).
OkeeDon said:
That'd get pretty old
A few around here had a couple weeks, but we only had 8 days - after that, every half-second twitch in power had us wondering "how long this time".Anyway Don, you nailed it about the breakers.
With generator specific throws [I think all of them, but really no idea], when you throw the switch it disconnects your input before connecting the power company. If you are using breakers or the old line switches or have any doubt whatsoever: Do not Not NOT turn that switch back on until you have turned off the generator AND disconnected the cord.
In response to Junk's post.
I have an 8KW Winco generator permentently wired to a transfer switch that feed a seperate "emergency" circuit breaker panel. This panel feeds all of the necessary items in the house including the frig, sump pumps, lights, ejector pump for the septic sysytem, etc. The entire electrical system, including the generator, was installed by a licensed electrician and had a UL inspection.
Back in November, I had the local utility run a test. Our home and the neighbors house are the only two that are feed by one transformer. In spite of this we constantly had momemtary brownouts - down to 85/90 volts - all of the time.
The test is performed by inserting a recording device in the meter socket and then the meter gets inserted in the recorder. The test runs for a week or so.
Now to the purpose of this story. The guy that does the testing has worked for PECO (our local electric utility) for a long time. Since the generator is few feet from the meter socket and has a disconnect switch mounted on the house, he made sure the he "opened" the switch before he did anything, knowing that the generator would start as soon as he removed the meter from the socket.
He called me after he installed the recorder to explain the procedure and told me that they have no way of knowing how the generator is wired and they do this as a precaution to insure that the utility is not "backfed" from the homeowners equipment. He simply did it as a safety precaution. After our discussion, he just let the generator run when he removed the recorder.
BTW, the problem was all of the tri-plex wire being undersized. It was about 40 years old and both homes now consume about 4x that power they used back then.They ran new wire from the transformer and reconfigured the connections about a week ago. The "brownout" problem has disappeared.
The day the crew showed up (they gave us about two weeks notice) to do the work, I had Mrs. Keybal talk to the foreman and assure him that the generator was installed via a transfer switch that includes both a electrical and mechanical interlocks so that the house can't "backfeed" their lines. He was satisified and they did all of the work with the generator running.
I have an 8KW Winco generator permentently wired to a transfer switch that feed a seperate "emergency" circuit breaker panel. This panel feeds all of the necessary items in the house including the frig, sump pumps, lights, ejector pump for the septic sysytem, etc. The entire electrical system, including the generator, was installed by a licensed electrician and had a UL inspection.
Back in November, I had the local utility run a test. Our home and the neighbors house are the only two that are feed by one transformer. In spite of this we constantly had momemtary brownouts - down to 85/90 volts - all of the time.
The test is performed by inserting a recording device in the meter socket and then the meter gets inserted in the recorder. The test runs for a week or so.
Now to the purpose of this story. The guy that does the testing has worked for PECO (our local electric utility) for a long time. Since the generator is few feet from the meter socket and has a disconnect switch mounted on the house, he made sure the he "opened" the switch before he did anything, knowing that the generator would start as soon as he removed the meter from the socket.
He called me after he installed the recorder to explain the procedure and told me that they have no way of knowing how the generator is wired and they do this as a precaution to insure that the utility is not "backfed" from the homeowners equipment. He simply did it as a safety precaution. After our discussion, he just let the generator run when he removed the recorder.
BTW, the problem was all of the tri-plex wire being undersized. It was about 40 years old and both homes now consume about 4x that power they used back then.They ran new wire from the transformer and reconfigured the connections about a week ago. The "brownout" problem has disappeared.
The day the crew showed up (they gave us about two weeks notice) to do the work, I had Mrs. Keybal talk to the foreman and assure him that the generator was installed via a transfer switch that includes both a electrical and mechanical interlocks so that the house can't "backfeed" their lines. He was satisified and they did all of the work with the generator running.
DAP
New member
Well ... these are a lot of interesting responses. I think the extent I wanna go falls short of many of your automatic or whole/house solutions.
Here's where I'm leaning. I'm thinking about a PTO driven generator of about 7500 watts. NorthStar model from Northern Tool.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/...?storeId=6970&productId=200308467&R=200308467
I have no distribution of this generator anywhere near me, so looks like I must order and have it shipped. I hate shopping like that! I digress ...
Rather than buy the mounting plate and a wheeled trailer for the thing, I'm thinking I'll get a 3 ph carry all (Howse or KingKutter), and mount the thing to that. I'd like one anyway and they don't take up space. The generator only weighs 110 lbs. They do NOT include a PTO shaft, so I'll have to get on of those. Lastly and perhaps not right away, I'll get an emergency panel to hang next to my panel so I can hook up the well pump (mine is 240), a light or 2, the fridge and the sump. I can go without hot water for a time ...
The costs break down as follows:
$750 for the PTO generator
$25 for the Shaft
$100 for the Carry all and some wood and bolts for iT
$350 for the emergency panel
$100 for the emergency connect cable
$150 labor for the panel hookup (wild guess)
... somewhere between 1500 and 2k ... all said and done.
I looked at the Honda EU3000 inverter technology ...nice, compact, quiet and all of 2000 USD. The B7800 is the perfect size for this generator and the price per watt is better with the PTO class of generators ... There are not a lot of choices however ...
I'm not trying to move off the grid, just save the ranch during outtages...
Opinions on my idea?
Here's where I'm leaning. I'm thinking about a PTO driven generator of about 7500 watts. NorthStar model from Northern Tool.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/...?storeId=6970&productId=200308467&R=200308467
I have no distribution of this generator anywhere near me, so looks like I must order and have it shipped. I hate shopping like that! I digress ...
Rather than buy the mounting plate and a wheeled trailer for the thing, I'm thinking I'll get a 3 ph carry all (Howse or KingKutter), and mount the thing to that. I'd like one anyway and they don't take up space. The generator only weighs 110 lbs. They do NOT include a PTO shaft, so I'll have to get on of those. Lastly and perhaps not right away, I'll get an emergency panel to hang next to my panel so I can hook up the well pump (mine is 240), a light or 2, the fridge and the sump. I can go without hot water for a time ...
The costs break down as follows:
$750 for the PTO generator
$25 for the Shaft
$100 for the Carry all and some wood and bolts for iT
$350 for the emergency panel
$100 for the emergency connect cable
$150 labor for the panel hookup (wild guess)
... somewhere between 1500 and 2k ... all said and done.
I looked at the Honda EU3000 inverter technology ...nice, compact, quiet and all of 2000 USD. The B7800 is the perfect size for this generator and the price per watt is better with the PTO class of generators ... There are not a lot of choices however ...
I'm not trying to move off the grid, just save the ranch during outtages...
Opinions on my idea?
