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Can Diesel Ever Become Fashionable In The U.S.?

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Interesting article based on some recent threads here . . .

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2008/09/can_diesel_ever.html

Can Diesel Ever Become Fashionable In The U.S.?

Posted by: David Kiley on September 09

diesel%2520pump.jpg

There has been overwhelming response to my story this week, “The 65 MPG Ford The U.S. Can’t Have.”The fact that the story has gotten picked up on so many news aggregators, blogs and other sites tells me there is a huge appetite for fuel efficient cars despite the recent drop in oil and gasoline prices.
When we do a three column story, there are always nuances and information that get cut for space. So, I wanted to use this blog entry to add some of them to the discussion.

1. A few motor-head blogs challenge whether the ECOnetic Fiesta will really get 65 mpg. Ford says it has tested at 63-65 miles per U.S. gallons. If Ford were to have the car put through the EPA’s paces, it would not likely earn a government certification as high as that on www.fueleconomy.gov. But “real-world” fuel economy, especially for small cars, runs considerably higher than EPA’s official ratings.

2. Two of the biggest enemies of diesel cars catching on are the state taxes on diesel that make it so much more expensive than gasoline these days, and the lack of enough refining capacity, which keeps it in short supply. A national energy policy that specifically addressed those two issues could unleash new interest in clean low-sulfur diesel cars.

3. California, especially keen to regulate CO2 emissions, only recently approved some low-sulfur diesel cars for sale in the state. The Volkswagen Jetta TDI and Mercedes-Benz Bluetec cars are among them. Those cars have pollution traps that have to be maintained. One of the worries of California regulators is that people won’t maintain the traps as they should. The supply of urea in the Mercedes system, for example, required to clean the nitrogen dioxide from the exhaust, is said to be good for 10,000 miles, so it only needs to be refilled at the vehicle’s normal service intervals. Maintaining the system, so owners wouldn’t be lax, can be achieved through a trip switch that won’t allow the car to start if the urea tank is empty. Volkswagen’s Jetta TDI will manages without a urea injection system by using a NOx-storage catalyst. Like the particulate filters in place on this car as well as other diesels, this catalyst is basically a trap that temporarily holds the offensive emissions. Periodically, the engine will switch to an air-fuel mixture that will burn off the material in the traps.


Also, the EPA or Congress could mandate that all 50-states, like New Jersey (to name one state), conduct annual vehicle inspections to keep all cars whose emissions systems are compromised or in disrepair off the road. This also keeps unsafe cars off the road.

4. Critics of diesel say the fuel isn’t offered everywhere, so people won’t buy it. I think that’s hogwash. Every community has stations that pump diesel. Owners of diesel cars and trucks come to know where they are and go to those stations. People aren’t that stupid. On the highways, stations are equipped with diesel pumps to service trucks.
But Kiley!, people don’t want to cue up behind tractor trailers to fill their tanks! Also, nonsense. VW has a waiting list for its Jetta TDIs. I’ve done it lots of times. It’s no big deal. And if we put enough crs on the road, the oil companies and gas station owners will follow by installing more diesel pumps that are away from the truck pump.

6. Why won’t Ford make the investment in an engine plant and lead the market? Aside from the fact that Ford is fighting for its life financially, I don’t see other companies building a small-block diesel engine plant in the U.S. either. To make sense financially, my story says that a new engine plant would have to be able to sell 250,000 to 300,000 a year. Ford just can’t make the numbers work to operate such a plant profitably. The diesel engines that go into cars are not the same as those that go into pickups. The best chance for a diesel car engine plant being built for U.S. consumption is if three companies combine on a joint venture plant the way GM, DaimlerChrysler and BMW collaborated on the hybrid technology that is going into vehicles from all three companies.

7. When you hear the Bush Administration, the Obama or McCain campaign talk about energy policy and future transportation, you really never hear them talk about diesel. It’s always hybrids and bio fuels. "Diesel" is about as popular a name as Frances Ethel Gumm (Judy Garland’s real name). That’s why VW calls their engine TDI, and Mercedes calls their engine Bluetec. As my story says, “diesel” just sounds low-tech to most people who aren’t familiar with it. It makes you wonder what the Diesel jeans people were thinking.

8. If Honda, Nissan and Hyundai are making moves to try diesel cars out on America, that is a sign that those companies see potential for the technology to catch on. Honda for years resisted making a diesel engine until it came up with a design that met its high green standards.
Check out this Honda diesel engine ad from the U.K. If this ad ran in the U.S., it would get a lot of people's attention.


9. In my years of covering the auto industry, I see no actual conspiracy against clean diesel in the U.S., but rather a kind of inertia. Selling it to the American public and resistant regulators will require an effort that involves cooperation among automakers to source engines and pollution control devices in North America and market he benefits of low-sulfur diesel and help by the Federal government to provide more generous tax credits to get the attention of consumers. It would also help if the winner of this year’s election was a gear-head and diesel booster, and used the bully pulpit to drive attention to it. But I’m not holding out much hope of that. Hybrids, electrics and plug-ins are the darlings of the green consumer…except those on the waiting list for VW Jetta TDIs.
 

Doc

Bottoms Up
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
I'm all for diesel. I hope we start seeing lots of the small fuel economy diesels here in the USA real soon.

from the article:
Also, the EPA or Congress could mandate that all 50-states, like New Jersey (to name one state), conduct annual vehicle inspections to keep all cars whose emissions systems are compromised or in disrepair off the road. This also keeps unsafe cars off the road.

No No No No NO!!!!!!!!! This turns into a racket and what a PITA it becomes. If a car is pulled over and found to be unsafe ticket the driver. If an unsafe car is seen driving on the road pull it over and ticket accordingly. To make 95% of the okay vehicles be inspected every year because of the few who drive cars in disrepair would be an outrage to all who take care of their vehicles. I lived in WV and had to deal with annual inspections. That is one reason I will never live in that state again.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
I'm all for diesel. I hope we start seeing lots of the small fuel economy diesels here in the USA real soon.



No No No No NO!!!!!!!!! This turns into a racket and what a PITA it becomes. If a car is pulled over and found to be unsafe ticket the driver. If an unsafe car is seen driving on the road pull it over and ticket accordingly. To make 95% of the okay vehicles be inspected every year because of the few who drive cars in disrepair would be an outrage to all who take care of their vehicles. I lived in WV and had to deal with annual inspections. That is one reason I will never live in that state again.

It's every two years here in WA and is a bit of a pain but in general I think it is a good idea. I think it could be done every 3-4 years without it being too much hassle.
 

Durwood RIP

Gone But Not Forgotten
Also a nice BIG fine if it ends up in a vehicle being driven on public roads.

Yes and the cops have a special "gun" where they can just sit beside the road and "shoot" your gas tank ,and if that diesel in your tank has dye in it for offroad use then that gun tells him so. As mentioned before the fines are huge.
 

Trakternut

Active member
Aside from the anti-pollution devices required, diesel would be my first pick. I've been around diesel engines for a large portion of my life. The trouble would be this:
A person who is inexperienced with diesel engines in cold climates will be in for a looonnng first winter. Adding #1 to a half tankful of cold #2 ain't gonna save you. You gotta start blending before it gets cold. Knowing how much to blend, what additives are good and which are just snakeoil is all part of the game.
Otherwise, in warmer climates, I think there'd be nothing wrong with 'em. They don't even stink anymore! :cry: Watch the newer semi trucks, nary a puff of smoke from the stacks. 20 years ago, you could tell when the driver picked up another gear by the puff from the stacks.
The only reason we don't have more diesels here is because "they" are keeping us enslaved to the lower mpg gasoline engines.
If you could get the oil companies to pull their heads out of congress' asses, we'd have 'em.
 

Trakternut

Active member
Oh yes! If your fuel blend is appropriate, a good block heater is almost an absolute promise of a quick start, every time!
 

waybomb

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
I have an old 82 Mercedes diesel. In the fall, I adjust the valves, change the glow plugs, make sure the battery heater still works and make sure the block heater still works (it's a 1500 watt!). I installed a full voltage timer for one plug at the house. That goes to the block heater. I plug the battery heater into another cord that always has power. The block heater turns on about 3:30 am.
I go out to the car, one glow plug cycle, crank it and it starts withing two revs. AND, I have instant heat!
 

Doc

Bottoms Up
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
I have an old 82 Mercedes diesel. In the fall, I adjust the valves, change the glow plugs, make sure the battery heater still works and make sure the block heater still works (it's a 1500 watt!). I installed a full voltage timer for one plug at the house. That goes to the block heater. I plug the battery heater into another cord that always has power. The block heater turns on about 3:30 am.
I go out to the car, one glow plug cycle, crank it and it starts withing two revs. AND, I have instant heat!

Sounds good but how does it work when you have to work a 9 or 10 hour day and it's 10 degrees outside? Can you take it to work on days like those?
 

waybomb

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
I park it with the nose toward the building. Usually go out to lunch around 11am. Takes two complete glowplug cycles and comes to life. If it is really cold out, say, less than 5+F, I'll leave the the diesel home and take something else.
I could plug it in at the factory, but then that takes away the challenge of keeping my 26 year old car going. Actually, 27; built in 81.
 

Av8r3400

Gone Flyin'
In Wisconsin they start selling (at most stations) a winter blend in October and only sell that until April. This alleviates the fuel gelling situation for most people.

I've been driving diesels exclusively for over 20 years now. Even my old non-turbo VW's and 6.2 Chevy boat anchor would start every time in the winter if taken care of properly. (Correct fuel, strong battery and at least 75% functioning glow plugs)

Fuel and engine technology have almost eliminated cold diesel starting problems. My TDi's are as quick to start (sometimes quicker) than the gas cars in the lot here at work after sitting in -20° for 10-12 hours. My Dodge-Cummins, although cold blooded and takes forever to warm up, will pop off and run (on at least 4 of the 6 :doh:) by the second turn no matter the temp.
 

Trakternut

Active member
I don't know how they do winter blends over there, but here, they used to just dump #1 on top of the #2 that was already in the tanks. When you filled, you still got mostly #2 until the level got low enough for the pumps to start picking up the #1.
I'd prefer, myself, to go to a place where #1 and #2 fuel are in separate pumps. Then, you can "custom blend" to your preference. When doing that, though, you gotta listen to the weather forecast for several days down the road. Sucks to get caught with too thick of a blend when the temps plummet. :unsure:

I gotta add this, though, Change your fuel filters often!!!!! That's the biggest bugaboo in winter is a filter that's got lots of wax and moisture in it.
 
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RedRocker

Active member
I keep hearing this "Americans don't want diesel", but I don't buy it. It's hard to
go diesel when none are available. VW has finally put a couple on the market, but
we're getting screwed by the feds. I'm sure money is changing hands somewhere
for some reason to keep them out of here.
 

Av8r3400

Gone Flyin'
I keep hearing this "Americans don't want diesel", but I don't buy it. It's hard to
go diesel when none are available. VW has finally put a couple on the market, but
we're getting screwed by the feds. I'm sure money is changing hands somewhere
for some reason to keep them out of here.

Talk to your friendly ecco-nazi, pro EPA bureaucrat. They measure pollutants by the gallon of fuel burned rather than per mile traveled.

Total crock of defecation...
 

Av8r3400

Gone Flyin'
I don't know how they do winter blends over there, but here, they used to just dump #1 on top of the #2 that was already in the tanks. When you filled, you still got mostly #2 until the level got low enough for the pumps to start picking up the #1.

It's usually blended at the distributor. Then they dump the blend on top of the remaining #2 in the tank. So at the begining of the season, the 'blend' is a little heavy in #2, but that's okay.
 

Trakternut

Active member
Talk to your friendly ecco-nazi, pro EPA bureaucrat. They measure pollutants by the gallon of fuel burned rather than per mile traveled.

Total crock of defecation...

Okay so, would somebody help me fathom their logic then? I figure a Ford Taurus with a diesel engine should get something close to 45 mpg. Now...even these days, the most economical semi truck will be in the 6-7 mpg range. Why aren't they blowing about all the trucks on the road??
My theory? Taxes! Find out how many $$/year the average truck pays in taxes and you'll find the answer, compared to Mom's car. :hammer:
So, they get more tax $$ from gasoline-burners because they use more gallons than a diesel!:hammer::hammer::hammer:
 

Av8r3400

Gone Flyin'
There are different emissions laws for heavier GVW vehicles. That's why we can have some choices of diesel in 8500# and over pickup trucks.

Bigger truck are different further. (I don't know the weight cut-offs.) Emissions are regulated differently on the bigger vehicles (+25K GVW?).

The laws are structured to keep diesels out of 8500# and smaller vehicles. :furious:
 

ghostdog

New member
European Audi/VW diesel's put out amazing torque (400-500 lbs). The TT Euro diesel is a great little sports car that just happens to get 40+ mpg.
Years back GM put out a problematic diesel...think it hurts old timers views. Anyone remember the Caddy (4-6-8 or whatever the hell they called it) that shut down cyclinders when power not needed? great idea but that sucker was a nightmare.
 

Av8r3400

Gone Flyin'
European Audi/VW diesel's put out amazing torque (400-500 lbs). The TT Euro diesel is a great little sports car that just happens to get 40+ mpg.
Years back GM put out a problematic diesel...think it hurts old timers views. Anyone remember the Caddy (4-6-8 or whatever the hell they called it) that shut down cyclinders when power not needed? great idea but that sucker was a nightmare.


Two different motors. The 'problem' diesel was a 5.7L V-8 diesel that was a conversion of the Oldsmobile (Rocket) short block to diesel. The original cast cranks couldn't handle the power pulses and cracked. This problem went away with a forged crank, but the damage was already done.

PLUS, without a turbo, an indirect injected diesel like this (or the 6.2 and early 6.5's) can't make enough power to get out of their own way. The 5.7 gave 35+ mpg out of a HUGE car like a (real) Delta 88, Sedan/Coupe Deville or Tornado, but at only 105 hp they were serious slugs to drive. (Yeah, I had one of these, too. 1982 Olds Delta 88)

Thanks GM. :sad:
 

RNE228

Bronze Member
Site Supporter
Chevy does that also now! It goes from 8 to 4 cylinders.

Mopar does too. The computer control of the fuel injection and eletronic ignition allows much better control than the system GM originally used.

FWIW, we had a family friend back then that had a Caddy. He commuted all over Northern California with that car. It worked pretty well; he put a ton of miles on it. Most of it though, was highway driving.
 
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