If your car wasn't union made, it may be lacking in quality...

So says the UAW. This has been going on behind the scenes very hot and heated. Now the UAW thinks that since they have (they think) 100% support by their union employees, they are going to try to strong arm Toyota, VW and Honda plants to unionize. Their premise is that they are paying roughly twice the dollars per hour for their workers so their products have twice the quality.

I think this is going to get ugly and backfire in a big way. Here (hope the link works - it's to a subscription site) is their position today. If you combine it with the last few weeks reports, they think they can get VW to fold and possibly Toyota next.

From a disinterested third party position (Well, I am interested in the quality of the vehicles produced; if they are shit, it costs me) I think this is going to backfire. They are riding their entire push on the Tourareg from VW and a drop in Camry sales (Toyota just redesigned their Camry and gave it a slightly more firm suspension to where it looks and handles more like an Accord). Oh, Nissan has told them to take a hike as well. Here is the link Unionize if you want quality.

What is making this more interesting is that they are trying to tie this to the "right to work" (misnomer) that is currently being debated in IN. IMHO, this most likely is the official beginning of the end of the UAW. I see no way it will work when their workers are overpaid and put out shit products compared to their very happy workers at non-union plants who are NOT complaining.

Well let me see if I can back up what the union is saying here. Now I have no experience with auto building other than in my back yard but can relate to the construction trades. Now I was a union sheet metal worker for 20 years. Now I spent 4 years in an apprenticeship program that I had to attend a 4 hour class 2 times a week and pass many requirement. Now later I went to work for the largest union world wide contractor Bechtel that took over a nuclear power plant that Brown and Root had not been able to build. Now when on the job we had some of the older Brown and Root people that where still working till we took over the complete job. According to them you was a sheet metal worker today, electrician, carpenter or plumber the next day. If you own tools you was a mechanic if not an apprentice. We got the job done in one year even redoing all that had been done over the previous 3 years on the job by B&R. Oh and B&R are now called Halliburton. So in a word I would say yes union workers can do it better and the difference in pay is really not that much as when the union got a raise through collective bargaining so did non union and about the same amount.

joec said:

Well let me see if I can back up what the union is saying here. Now I have no experience with auto building other than in my back yard but can relate to the construction trades. Now I was a union sheet metal worker for 20 years. Now I spent 4 years in an apprenticeship program that I had to attend a 4 hour class 2 times a week and pass many requirement. Now later I went to work for the largest union world wide contractor Bechtel that took over a nuclear power plant that Brown and Root had not been able to build. Now when on the job we had some of the older Brown and Root people that where still working till we took over the complete job. According to them you was a sheet metal worker today, electrician, carpenter or plumber the next day. If you own tools you was a mechanic if not an apprentice. We got the job done in one year even redoing all that had been done over the previous 3 years on the job by B&R. Oh and B&R are now called Halliburton. So in a word I would say yes union workers can do it better and the difference in pay is really not that much as when the union got a raise through collective bargaining so did non union and about the same amount.

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High quality Union made products is how GM stayed on top of the market for years. It is why they are successful. If it wasn't for the Unions, General Motors would be out of business today.

Trade unions in the construction industry are very different in their approach to quality workmanship. Hands down the craft unions that are still "craftsmen" will survive the competition with non skilled labor. This because of theior emphasis on training and providing work that meets building codes and generaly accepted construction practices.

This standard of performace does not conflict with their barganining positions. This because most trade unions leaders recognize thay have to provide "value" for the extra costs.

GM had problems because they didn't build or stay on top of what the people where rally looking to buy. While others such as Toyota charged the same prices for their cars they sold better, so please explain that to me.

Union UAW workers really don't make more per hour than non union auto workers, however they do have a bit more security in their jobs unlike say a Toyota worker here in Kentucky. They are hired as a temp for 6 months then laid off for a few days so they don't have to put them on full time. Then hired back again as a temp..

joec said:

GM had problems because they didn't build or stay on top of what the people where rally looking to buy. While others such as Toyota charged the same prices for their cars they sold better, so please explain that to me.

Union UAW workers really don't make more per hour than non union auto workers, however they do have a bit more security in their jobs unlike say a Toyota worker here in Kentucky. They are hired as a temp for 6 months then laid off for a few days so they don't have to put them on full time. Then hired back again as a temp..

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GMhad problems becuase the were paying 3 times per unit in labor costs. period. They had to compete so the value was removed from the vehicle.

Simple bean counting. Nothing more.

I would love to hear from the line workers at the Nissan and Toyota plants on this. Their view of the employer, of Managment is remarkably different than that of GM , Ford , and Chrysler union workers. They make a little less. Yet they would seem to work harder at acheiving quality.

Because they do acheive better results.

joec said:

Well let me see if I can back up what the union is saying here. Now I have no experience with auto building other than in my back yard but can relate to the construction trades. Now I was a union sheet metal worker for 20 years. Now I spent 4 years in an apprenticeship program that I had to attend a 4 hour class 2 times a week and pass many requirement. Now later I went to work for the largest union world wide contractor Bechtel that took over a nuclear power plant that Brown and Root had not been able to build. Now when on the job we had some of the older Brown and Root people that where still working till we took over the complete job. According to them you was a sheet metal worker today, electrician, carpenter or plumber the next day. If you own tools you was a mechanic if not an apprentice. We got the job done in one year even redoing all that had been done over the previous 3 years on the job by B&R. Oh and B&R are now called Halliburton. So in a word I would say yes union workers can do it better and the difference in pay is really not that much as when the union got a raise through collective bargaining so did non union and about the same amount.

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Unfortunately, unions have been given enough rope to hang themselves, and that is exactly what they are doing. Last year I laughed out loud when I learned who they elected as their leader; Richard Trumpka. Trumpka became a multimillionaire as he effectively castrated the UMWA. So, after his complete and total failure there, costing 20,000 union coal mining jobs in IN alone, the UAW have him leading them.

In quality, workmanship, and end product, the companies they are trying to unionize kick their unionized asses all across the country. I'm a Toyota worker right up the road from me; I get $27.50 an hour in pay, overtime pretty is pretty well available if I want it, I get dental, vision, major medical and a hell of a retirement plan. Trumpka and his thugs come in and tell me that "Hell no, you don't go help hang doors on another line if your windshield line has stopped even though you worked a year hanging doors a year or so ago. Trumpka says to tell Toyota that they are using you and "that's not your job" and you sit on your ass until more windshields need installed.

Well, that entire "Japanese" idea of "teamwork" has to go first thing! I'm not too bright, but I can see where this would be greatly harmful to the production process. If it's harmful to the production process, either they will need less vehicles or less employees since Toyota isn't big on having people sit on a stool for an entire shift. Before long, Toyota is in financial trouble just like GM and my new job, where management and line workers are no longer friends but are in adversarial roles, the plant is in trouble. Nah, sorry, you can take your union crap and shove it right up your Trumpka. Just look at what a success story GM is....NOT! Our grandchildren will be paying for that debacle which, when you break it down to it's root cause, is a union problem.

I believe you'll see IN to tell the union thugs to get the hell out of our state. We're in the black and would like to stay that way. The wonderful state of Ohio demonstrated how easily the thugs like Trumpka can fool them. I bet they think Obama is great too.

Dargo said:

Unfortunately, unions have been given enough rope to hang themselves, and that is exactly what they are doing. Last year I laughed out loud when I learned who they elected as their leader; Richard Trumpka. Trumpka became a multimillionaire as he effectively castrated the UMWA. So, after his complete and total failure there, costing 20,000 union coal mining jobs in IN alone, the UAW have him leading them.

In quality, workmanship, and end product, the companies they are trying to unionize kick their unionized asses all across the country. I'm a Toyota worker right up the road from me; I get $27.50 an hour in pay, overtime pretty is pretty well available if I want it, I get dental, vision, major medical and a hell of a retirement plan. Trumpka and his thugs come in and tell me that "Hell no, you don't go help hang doors on another line if your windshield line has stopped even though you worked a year hanging doors a year or so ago. Trumpka says to tell Toyota that they are using you and "that's not your job" and you sit on your ass until more windshields need installed.

Well, that entire "Japanese" idea of "teamwork" has to go first thing! I'm not too bright, but I can see where this would be greatly harmful to the production process. If it's harmful to the production process, either they will need less vehicles or less employees since Toyota isn't big on having people sit on a stool for an entire shift. Before long, Toyota is in financial trouble just like GM and my new job, where management and line workers are no longer friends but are in adversarial roles, the plant is in trouble. Nah, sorry, you can take your union crap and shove it right up your Trumpka. Just look at what a success story GM is....NOT! Our grandchildren will be paying for that debacle which, when you break it down to it's root cause, is a union problem.

I believe you'll see IN to tell the union thugs to get the hell out of our state. We're in the black and would like to stay that way. The wonderful state of Ohio demonstrated how easily the thugs like Trumpka can fool them. I bet they think Obama is great too.

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Well lets see how it works out in Wisconsin as they are recalling the governor there and he seems it might have a chance of making him unemployed since I saw a piece of him apologizing for his actions just a few days ago.

FrancSevin said:

I would love to hear from the line workers at the Nissan and Toyota plants on this. Their view of the employer, of Managment is remarkably different than that of GM , Ford , and Chrysler union workers. They make a little less. Yet they would seem to work harder at acheiving quality.

Because they do acheive better results.

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I have a half a dozen or more Toyota employees over for Thanksgiving and Christmas every year. They thank God for the wonderful jobs they have and they know there are literally tens of thousands of applications on file from people wanting to work for Toyota. They need the UAW like they need a bullet in the head. Some are pretty redneck folk. I assure you that if Trumpka is stupid enough to come and try to convince those workers that they are being abused and they need the UAW, Trumpka will need a very large police escort out of town.

There used to be a large Chrysler plant in my home town. They were a proud bunch. During WWII, they produced almost all of the .45ACP ammo used in the war. However, the union convinced them that they were being abused and weren't getting their share of the profits and unionized them and they demanded more. Chrysler basically said, you need to go back to your happy ways and enjoy your far above average paying job or we'll just leave Evansville. That Chrysler plant is now in St. Louis. When the largest, by far, employer left town the union just said "they were taking advantage of you anyway".

Fast forward 50 years or so and look at Whirlpool. Whirlpool had occupied the plant next to our airport since they quit making the P47 airplanes. They made top notch refrigerators, washers, dryers and washing machines. The union did the same thing; said they should be paid more, even though Whirlpool was losing money due to the current recession/depression. The union said "to hell with that! Go on strike until they pay you more!!". At that time Whirlpool was the largest employer in Evansville. Now it's gone. Whirlpool moved the plant to Mexico with NO UNION and even Consumer Reports noted that their quality has gone up and they are again price competitive.

I've worked union and I've worked non-union. My dad worked union jobs for 40 years and what did it get him? It got him unemployed at the age of 62. Try starting a career over at that age. Worse yet, Trumpka and the other UMWA thugs cannot account for tens of millions of union money and the workers who trusted the union with their entire life savings will likely lose most all of that along with the promise of lifetime health care. Thanks unions! To be blunt, at one point in time unions had their place and helped the worker. However, in the last 50 years or so, unions have been nothing but a plague on the US worker and have sent untold millions of jobs overseas. These corrupt unions (and any union lead by Trumpka IS corrupt) can kiss my hairy ass!!

The members are their own enemy. Construction has changed a lot in the last twenty years going from union controlled to merit shops. The union has very little left and over the last ten years I have watched many merit shops get taken over by unions only to fizzle out. What gets me is the members themselves don't even buy union. If union members got the job done faster and cheaper we sure as heck wouldn't be seeing this trend. Go out on a union job site and see the production if you can.

joec said:

Well lets see how it works out in Wisconsin as they are recalling the governor there and he seems it might have a chance of making him unemployed since I saw a piece of him apologizing for his actions just a few days ago.

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too bad, a guy standing up for what has to be done and the state is doing everything they can to oust him. Ousting him will only put the state back on it's course of destruction. Also there was a lot of union bullying to get this process going.

unions? how about the steel industry in the 70's and 80's, american car companies, paper industry in the 2000's.

unions had their place, but have gotten out of control. driving up labor costs to where the industry cant compete.

Unions have been dead in this country for the most part for over 30 years guys. Total union membership is about 7% of the total work force if not less. Their hay day the where only about 20%. Unions have died and will continue to die hence the middle class will also die and that is happening now.

joec said:

Well lets see how it works out in Wisconsin as they are recalling the governor there and he seems it might have a chance of making him unemployed since I saw a piece of him apologizing for his actions just a few days ago.

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We caould arguethese points ad nauseum. ou are welcome to it..

Bottom line is that the premise "it may be lacking" is a joke. At best union made American cars, by a deserved reputation, simply do not measure up to their non union counterparts, much less beyond them. You are not driving a less Quality car if it is non union. Although you could be driving one that is simply of less quality than you had anticipated. Union or not.

Apples to apples comparison of models, the union made has no advantage over the non union made. JD powers assessments have shown that repeatedly.

Quality is oftened defined as the "successful delivery of expectations." Madison Avenue advertising seems to have some influence on that more than true quality comparisons. That said, the consumer eventually creates the winners and the losers.

I would simply suggest asking,,,,,,,,"Who losing?"
I rest my case.

FrancSevin said:

We caould arguethese points ad nauseum. ou are welcome to it..

Bottom line is that the premise "it may be lacking" is a joke. At best union made American cars, by a deserved reputation, simply do not measure up to their non union counterparts, much less beyond them. You are not driving a less Quality car if it is non union. Although you could be driving one that is simply of less quality than you had anticipated. Union or not.

Apples to apples comparison of models, the union made has no advantage over the non union made. JD powers assessments have shown that repeatedly.

Quality is oftened defined as the "successful delivery of expectations." Madison Avenue advertising seems to have some influence on that more than true quality comparisons. That said, the consumer eventually creates the winners and the losers.

I would simply suggest asking,,,,,,,,"Who losing?"
I rest my case. :brows:

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We are, the American middle class.

spencerhenry said:

unions? how about the steel industry in the 70's and 80's, american car companies, paper industry in the 2000's.

unions had their place, but have gotten out of control. driving up labor costs to where the industry cant compete.

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I will grant you that as there needs to be a balance and unions got too strong in the 70's and early 80's but today are dead while business can now name their own price so the pendulum has swung back to the late 1800's in this country. Hopefully people can learn to live on the wages companies now offer but I tend to doubt it. It really though doesn't much matter as Europe is about to go bankrupt and China has their problems also so be prepared for another world wide depression as it is coming quickly. Perhaps the South American Indians had their calender correct 2012 is the end of life as we know it now.

Dargo said:

These corrupt unions (and any union lead by Trumpka IS corrupt) can kiss my hairy ass!!

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Well now, tell us how you really feel Dargo...

Well, my 2012 Sonata is made in the USA with non union workers in Alabama. I will put its build quality and fit and finish up against any UAW built car in the world for under 30K.

joec said:

Well lets see how it works out in Wisconsin as they are recalling the governor there and he seems it might have a chance of making him unemployed since I saw a piece of him apologizing for his actions just a few days ago.

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Yeah, the Dem before him was a really great guy. Het ransferring $200 million from a medical malpractice fund to the Medical assistance trust fund. In July 2010, the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled that the transfer was illegal and that the state must restore the money to the malpractice fund. Oops, he wasn't as slick as Slick Willy and got caught on that one. In September 2010, Doyle was one of seven governors to receive a grade of F in the fiscal-policy report card of the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank co-founded by billionaire Charles Koch. He left the state drowning in red ink. When caught stealing, he tried to tax and spend as much as he could but left the state nearly as bad as Obama's home state, also drowning in red ink.

Faced with a state that was basically bankrupt, Walker proposed a budget repair bill on February 11, 2011 that would save the state an estimated $30 million in the current fiscal year, and $300 million over the next two years.[40] The bill would require additional contributions by state and local government workers to their health care plans and pensions, amounting to roughly an 8% decrease in the average government worker's take home pay.[41] The bill also would eliminate, for government workers, most collective bargaining rights except for wages. Unions would be unable to seek pay increases, for government workers, above the rate of inflation, unless approved by a voter referendum.

What's wrong with that? It's one hell of a move to try to right the ship. Oh, I forgot, it stepped on the toes of the thug union bosses. For some reason, union workers shouldn't have to bear their share of helping the state recover. Smear ads and pure lies have gotten the extremely uneducated Dumbocrats all in an uproar. If they want a bankrupt state like IL, CA, NY etc. (hmm, all Dem states), let 'em rot. Until they are bright enough to understand that unions have done them in, to hell with them. Sorry, no compassion here. I've seen and experienced union corruption and seen what it does.

But, back to the subject, how much you want to wager on the thugs getting VW, Honda, Toyota and Nissan to unionize? I don't care how desperate the unions are and how much they lie to the workers, it isn't going to happen! And, fortunately, it's better for all of us!

squerly said:

Well now, tell us how you really feel Dargo...

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I put this in the debate area because I'm known for beating around the bush when it comes to how I feel on a subject.

Lets see then Toyota here in Kentucky pays a whopping $10 per hour for the first 6 months and goes to $14 if you make it by the trial period (6 months). Now few make it past that period but are rehired shortly after being let go. Now here in Kentucky even $10 per hour is tough to live on for a single person much less a family. Now don't miss 3 days of work in that first 6 months as you are gone, also don't say anything in the way of criticism of their methods even in regards to safety as you will be gone.

Dargo said:

Unfortunately, unions have been given enough rope to hang themselves, and that is exactly what they are doing. Last year I laughed out loud when I learned who they elected as their leader; Richard Trumpka. Trumpka became a multimillionaire as he effectively castrated the UMWA. So, after his complete and total failure there, costing 20,000 union coal mining jobs in IN alone, the UAW have him leading them.

In quality, workmanship, and end product, the companies they are trying to unionize kick their unionized asses all across the country. I'm a Toyota worker right up the road from me; I get $27.50 an hour in pay, overtime pretty is pretty well available if I want it, I get dental, vision, major medical and a hell of a retirement plan. Trumpka and his thugs come in and tell me that "Hell no, you don't go help hang doors on another line if your windshield line has stopped even though you worked a year hanging doors a year or so ago. Trumpka says to tell Toyota that they are using you and "that's not your job" and you sit on your ass until more windshields need installed.

Well, that entire "Japanese" idea of "teamwork" has to go first thing! I'm not too bright, but I can see where this would be greatly harmful to the production process. If it's harmful to the production process, either they will need less vehicles or less employees since Toyota isn't big on having people sit on a stool for an entire shift. Before long, Toyota is in financial trouble just like GM and my new job, where management and line workers are no longer friends but are in adversarial roles, the plant is in trouble. Nah, sorry, you can take your union crap and shove it right up your Trumpka. Just look at what a success story GM is....NOT! Our grandchildren will be paying for that debacle which, when you break it down to it's root cause, is a union problem.

I believe you'll see IN to tell the union thugs to get the hell out of our state. We're in the black and would like to stay that way. The wonderful state of Ohio demonstrated how easily the thugs like Trumpka can fool them. I bet they think Obama is great too.

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Nope Dargo I don't disagree that unions won't get a foot hold any more but then I think this nation is in its death throws now due to the government and that is both sides and the morons that voted for them. Unions to me is really a mute point at this point in time as it won't matter much in another year or two really.

joec said:

Lets see then Toyota here in Kentucky pays a whopping $10 per hour for the first 6 months and goes to $14 if you make it by the trial period (6 months). Now few make it past that period but are rehired shortly after being let go. Now here in Kentucky even $10 per hour is tough to live on for a single person much less a family. Now don't miss 3 days of work in that first 6 months as you are gone, also don't say anything in the way of criticism of their methods even in regards to safety as you will be gone.

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I'm responding to the title that says the UAW claims that if your car is not made by them it could be of lesser quality.

In response to that I say bullshit at least in my case.

Now if we want to talk about those working conditions as you outline above, I agree with you if your point is to point out some of Toyota's work place injustices. What we see here is the other extreme. I hate extremes. Fair day for fair pay.

From personal experience (my families and friends) if the UAW made the vehicle it has twice as many issues / breakdowns as a non union Honda or Toyota. Hopefully UAW cannot strong arm their way into the other car-makers factories.

joec said:

Lets see then Toyota here in Kentucky pays a whopping $10 per hour for the first 6 months and goes to $14 if you make it by the trial period (6 months). Now few make it past that period but are rehired shortly after being let go. Now here in Kentucky even $10 per hour is tough to live on for a single person much less a family. Now don't miss 3 days of work in that first 6 months as you are gone, also don't say anything in the way of criticism of their methods even in regards to safety as you will be gone.

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I don't asgree with that scenerio. It is not how Toyota treats it's workers. Or Nissan over in Nashville..

How about I play your game here Joec.....Prove it

Here is a good video of some of the stuff that I see happening a lot.


Video

FrancSevin said:

I don't asgree with that scenerio. It is not how Toyota treats it's workers. Or Nissan over in Nashville..

How about I play your game here Joec.....Prove it

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Simply go talk to anyone that has worked for Toyota here in Kentucky. Don't know about Nashville but have a few tenants here that have worked serveral times now for Toyota and hate it to the person just have no choice anymore. So you disagreed with me how about you proving your point for a change.

joec said:

Simply go talk to anyone that has worked for Toyota here in Kentucky. Don't know about Nashville but have a few tenants here that have worked serveral times now for Toyota and hate it to the person just have no choice anymore. So you disagreed with me how about you proving your point for a change.

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It was my understanding that the union tried unionizing Toyota. The employees said no. I am sure if the majority wanted to unionize they would have as the laws favor unions right now.

joec said:

Lets see then Toyota here in Kentucky pays a whopping $10 per hour for the first 6 months and goes to $14 if you make it by the trial period (6 months). Now few make it past that period but are rehired shortly after being let go. Now here in Kentucky even $10 per hour is tough to live on for a single person much less a family. Now don't miss 3 days of work in that first 6 months as you are gone, also don't say anything in the way of criticism of their methods even in regards to safety as you will be gone.

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I heard similar stories from guys working at the Marysville Ohio Honda plant. So, perhaps they are true. Assuming they are, so what? The company can run it as they see fit. It was 12+ years ago when I was in the area to hear about these workers and even then people were lining up for those jobs. They were an opportunity. On the job performers moved up. Non performers were let go. Imagine that.

This poster has to be pasted all over the workplace of every business and even mailed to each employee. If Toyota employees wanted to unionize they sure could have by now.

Poster

It amazes me how eaisly we (Americans) can be convienced to act against our own best interest.