Economy Cars ... my new VW Jetta TDI (diesel) vs Toyota Prius

B_Skurka said:

Brian, the Jetta is not CURRENTLY available with AWD. There are plenty of rumors it will be offered with an AWD in the future. It is available with either manual or auto transmission. Mine has the automatic transmission, I believe it is a 6 speed auto. Sometimes referred to as a DSG transmission???

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As you may recall, I promised my kids a new car if they graduate valedictorian of their high school class. My oldest daughter has basically one semester to go and she's never gotten a single B in her entire life except on one test, not on a report card, but just on one test. Odds look pretty good that I'll be buying her a new car in about 5 or 6 months. In all seriousness, I really like the VW Jetta spec'd out about exactly as you have yours. I just don't know what color yours is. You seem to have an aversion to posting pictures of it so I can show my daughter. If she likes the car, that's most likely what I plan to buy her. Even though it's certainly not cheap, it's cheaper than paying 4 years tuition to Duke, where she seems to want to go for undergrad school. So, those pictures....?

Thanks Bob.
I was hoping an AWD was available because I'm thinking it (coupled with the auto tranny) that the new TDI would be a natural transition from it's older brother (cousin?), the Audi A6 Quattro which is what Mrs. Zoom currently drives.

bczoom said:

Thanks Bob.
I was hoping an AWD was available because I'm thinking it (coupled with the auto tranny) that the new TDI would be a natural transition from it's older brother (cousin?), the Audi A6 Quattro which is what Mrs. Zoom currently drives.

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Can't really compare the A6 to the Jetta. Audi trim and luxury is a few steps above the Jetta, and the size is quite a bit different too. A Jetta shares components with the Audi A3. The Passat, next size up from a Jetta would be sharing components with the A4.

If an A4 TDI would have been offered here in the USA that is probably the car I would have purchased. FWIW, there is (or at least was) an AWD version of the Passat, but unfortunately that is not offered with the TDI engine.

When I went looking for a car I was not looking for one as small as the Jetta, but I was looking to get a diesel. Being that diesel was the over riding feature I wanted that dramatically limited my choices of vehicles. I did not want a luxury car (Mercedes E class) because my daughter is learning to drive and didn't want a $50 to $60K car totaled by a teenager! The A3, to my eye, is just sort of ugly. The front end of the Jetta is not to my liking either but with the TDI Cup body kit (aka ThunderBunny kit) it transforms the look of the car. So my Jetta is awaiting the delivery of a ThunderBunny kit and we are building up a quazi-TDI Cup street car, but with as luxurious of an interior as is possible to get in a nice, but economical, little compact. I'm also waiting for a "HomeLink" self dimming after market mirror and several other items that will up the convenience level of the vehicle.

If your wife is used to a nicely equipped A6 then she will miss some of the convenience features that are not available on the Jetta TDI. Things like "seat memory" buttons (that also adjust the mirrors), self-dimming mirrors, and automatic headlamps are not really thought about until you don't have them!

Thanks for the info Bob.

B_Skurka said:

If an A4 TDI would have been offered here in the USA that is probably the car I would have purchased. FWIW, there is (or at least was) an AWD version of the Passat, but unfortunately that is not offered with the TDI engine.

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That sucks for me. A Passat or A4 with the TDI and AWD is the ticket I'm looking for but doesn't seem to exist.

If the vehicle is "well dressed", has a good demeanor and has respectable interior room, I think Mrs. Zoom would be happy. Leather (heated), common power amenities and a kick-ass stereo should be OK. Since she's the only driver, the memory seats, mirrors and such aren't really needed.

Sounds like she needs to go kick tires and determine what's important.

bczoom said:

Thanks for the info Bob.


That sucks for me. A Passat or A4 with the TDI and AWD is the ticket I'm looking for but doesn't seem to exist.

If the vehicle is "well dressed", has a good demeanor and has respectable interior room, I think Mrs. Zoom would be happy. Leather (heated), common power amenities and a kick-ass stereo should be OK. Since she's the only driver, the memory seats, mirrors and such aren't really needed.

Sounds like she needs to go kick tires and determine what's important.

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Well if you option it up to the max, which is what I did, then you have a pretty nice little car in the Jetta TDI. Might want to take a look at the A3 if she can tolerate the looks of that one. It has more options available, uses the same basic running gear but has a bit more luxury to it. I just really did not like the looks, its like a mini-wagon, but not really. The interior and features of the A3 TDI are more to my liking but I just couldn't live with the exterior.

bczoom said:

I was hoping an AWD was available...

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Subaru's diesel is due in the U.S. in mid 2010.

It took me 8 years to talk Mrs. Zoom into a minivan... as her tertiary vehicle. There's no way in hell she'll go for something that looks like a wagon.

That Audi R10 V12 TDI looks pretty sweet. Think it comes with a windshield? But then again, where would you put that gallon of milk you picked up on the way home?

BTW, neither of us are impressed with Mercedes. With routine maintenance (just to keep it happy) running in the $100-150 per month, it sucks the life out of their other benefits.

AndyM said:

Subaru's diesel is due in the U.S. in mid 2010.

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That's the other one I've been considering. Do you know off the top of your head is their offering for a sedan or their wagon or both?

B_Skurka said:

Lyndon, I suspect that the pre-2009 TDI engines will get slightly better fuel economy than the 2009/2010 TDI engines as the newer engines deal with emissions in a different way than the older version.

The upside is that the new engines are 50 state compliant.

The downsides are that the new engines are more sensitive to bio-diesel and they also get very slightly less fuel economy because they send vaporized but un-burnt fuel into the exhaust to burn combust inside the exhaust system to burn out the particulates that accumulated in the system.

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The Early VW Diesel engines were about 60 HP. It has been highly refined since it's original development. They incorperate a second CAM shaft to take out vibration, a "counterbalancing-cam". Then they turbo charged it to 90HP. That's what I have. A 1.9 L, 4 cylinder. There are rumors about a 'European-Only' smaller yet version that got 70 MPG that again never made it to North America. The New, Larger engine, 2 L, is 140 HP, and just won't get the great mileage the older, smaller engine did. The 1.9 will still be offered overseas and in Canada. A young man at a parts house near me indicated that a place in Everett Washington will do the necessary dirty work to import one from Canada. They change the setting of the Air Bag deployment to a more sensitive setting for the US, and add some sheetmetal where there are plastic panels for re-inforcement. I'll find out more as this develops.

My car doesn't seem to care weather it's biodiesel or not. But a friends Stationwagon seems to run better on Biodiesel, seems some intake component doesn't want to plug up as readily.

The Subaru with the "Boxer-Diesel" is already in service in Austrailia and is due to hit the US market next fall. The Japanese agreement to "NOT OFFER DIESELS in the US" Expires in 2010. Some of the polution standards for Japan exceed those for the US so all bets are off as to what will show up. They first started producing a Diesel/Electric Hybrid in 1968 for Tokyo (Madza). Severe air polution had them declairing emergency days where only electric trains and emergency vehicles were allowed to operate. So even though you never heard about it before this, don't be surprised to see a wide variety of Jap stuff show up. The agreement NOT to import was put into place to prevent American manufacturers from going under. It could be the end for the Detroits "Big 3". There are a lot of folks that would rather have a 300,000 Jap car that uses half the fuel, than some Ford or GM that only goes 100,000 Miles. Don't get the Idea that I don't like American made stuff, My GM 6.5 Turbo Diesel 4X4 One Ton rides nice, Like an old Lincoln, and I havn't seen anything like it offered from Japan, yet!

Just got back from Skiing at Whistler Blackomb in BC (Canada). They are gearing up for the Winter Olympics. They had almost the entire VW line, except the Bug, available in what they call "4 Motion". Jetta, Passat, Rotan, some van, and both the Jetta Station Wagon and the Passat Station Wagon in 4 Motion diesel. Both diesel engines. 90 HP & 140 HP. VW's a big sponser at Ski events. There has been a New VW parked on the ski slopes at the lodge at Whistler and at Lake Louise every time I went there. They had all the models at Whistler Village this summer for the Mountain Biking championships. Plenty of TDI and 4 Motion stuff. It looked pretty tempting!
Also one of our member mentioned that Canadian Grocery stores seem better stocked, well I found that to be true!

AndyM said:

Subaru's diesel is due in the U.S. in mid 2010.

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My priest drives a Subaru Forrester, I've had him in my Touareg many times. He covets my Touareg His comments have kept me away from the Subaru cars, among other things, his observations to me are that the VWs are "solid" and much quieter. Melen's fencing coach's husband drives a Subaru Legacy and seems to love it. He took it up to Wisconsin this weekend when we had Melen up there for a tournament, I didn't get to ride/drive the Legacy but it sure looks nice!

Well I'm just about 2000 miles into this car and have some observations.

#1 - for a small car it is very comfortable
#2 - in the past 2 days the fuel economy has dropped. Some of that may be due to snow driving conditions. Some of that may be due to near ZERO temperatures. This is a diesel, they work on compression not on combustion. I've noticed that when the engine is cold the fuel economy is reduced. But as I'm also now driving in snow conditions it is very likely that some of the reduced fuel economy is due to snow driving and the traffic flow related to people driving in the snow.

Fuel economy is now sitting at 39.2mpg for the nearly 2000 miles of driving. That mileage now includes a trip right through the city of Chicago, a reasonable bit of city driving, and a small amount of freeway driving.

ONE ADDED BONUS: Trunk space is exceptional.
Without folding the rear seats I can easily hold several gear bags from the Fencing Club, each bag is roughly the size of a typical Golf Bag, so I'd say it would be easy to fit 4 average sets of golf clubs in the trunk. I'm not talking about the big "tour" bags used by professional golfers, but the trunk would probably hold a couple of those and still have room for 1 of the more typical golf bags. The trunk opening is not wide, but the trunk is deep and offers a surprising amount of room. The 60/40 fold down rear seats add to the hauling ability. The rear arm rest pass through is a nice touch too, and better in that it is lockable.

The optional navigation system, while very expensive, especially on a car that is typically considered an economy car, is an excellent navigation computer. It is a major improvement over the navigation system in my Touareg, ties into the Sirius radio to offer real world traffic updates for accidents, congestion, etc. It also offers multiple route choice, a list of user programmable favorites, etc. The navigation system also has a (so far) flawless bluetooth phone integration that include voice command so simply by speaking some commands the radio mutes and the phone responds. Very slick system, very user friendly, and I'm still learning more features as I go along.

I was not planning on driving the Jetta as winter set in but I'm having so much fun with it that the Touareg is currently parked. Perhaps when the snow gets deep I'll have pity on the Touareg and pull it back out to let it play.

Winter blended diesel trades BTU content (mileage) for cold fluid viscosity (anti-gelling). It is easy to loose 10-15% with winter blended fuel. Totally normal.

Be sure to be choosey where you get your fuel. Diesel quality varies way more than gasoline. Follow the truckers. Where they buy fuel often, the fuel is usually fresher and of better general quality.

(My favorite in this area is at Fleet Farm, believe it or not. Very good stuff. Kwik Trip is the worst - gas or diesel.)

Well I did about 55 miles this morning. According to the trip computer my average MPG increased this morning to about 37mpg. This on the SAME tank of fuel as the last few days. So I'm thinking the small amount of snow on the roads may have been one of the biggest contributing factors to my reduced milage. Temps today are in the single digits again. The biggest difference was the snow is basically all off the roadways.

B_Skurka said:

Funny thing about Ford, they have a Ford in England that gets 65mpg with a small diesel engine. The President of Ford said there was no interest in bringing that engine to America because the market for diesels is too small here.

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Because they are not willing to create a market for it.

I'll bet that if you dig deeply enough into it you'll find that the manufactures are afraid to bring it here because the gov't will force them to make all their vehicles have the same efficiency as that one (comparitively). This will make the other cars in their lineup more expensive to produce, and you know what that does to profits..

3200 mile update:

WINTER BLEND FUEL yields lower miles per gallon. Seems like the first 1500 miles it was pretty easy to 'average' 40 to 41 mpg. The second 1500 mile has the fuel economy dropped down to 38 to 39 mpg. Those are 'averages' of my daily driving routine, which is no less than 80 but rarely more than 140 miles per day. The driving mix is includes hilly rural 2 lane rural roads, reasonably flat 2 lane rural roads which evolve into 4 lane suburban/city driving and then into 4 lane suburban driving.

SNOW/ICE drop the fuel economy about 5-mpg. Even rain seems to drop the fuel economy a couple miles per gallon. I suspect that the rolling resistance increases enough, in just rain, to sap away 2 miles per gallon. But when there is snow on the road it drops another 2 or 3 mpgs.

COMFORT & LUXURY: I rate this little care VERY HIGH in comfort but only AVERAGE in terms of luxury. Realizing this is a fully optioned economy car, the comfort level is very high for such a small/economical car. Seats are nicely supportive and even on long days are a pleasure to occupy. But when it comes to "luxury" this car is, at best, average. Its just not designed to be luxurious so little trim pieces and convenience features are absent. On the minus side: The seats are manual with an electric lumbar adjustment, consequently there is no "memory" function for multiple drivers. There mirror is not an 'auto dimming' type. There is no built in "homelink" system to activate the garage doors. The climate control is a simple unit, not a multi-zone affair. The wipers are neither speed nor rain sensitive. The headlamps are not automatic. On the plus side, the glove box is climate controlled so you can chill a bottle of wine; there is a 120volt inverter so you can plug in your computer, or other AC appliance. The rear arm rest is wide and comfortable, the front arm rest, while small, is nicely padded and adjustable. The steering wheel and seats are leather wrapped. Options allow for an excellent navigation system, sun/moon roof, and the trunk is huge!

If you want to go through the grief, as I did, you can order OEM parts from Germany to further enhance the vehicle. It seems like there is an active tuner crowd that messes around with both performance and luxury/convenience items on the Jetta and Golf series cars (they share many parts). I've added sliding under-seat storage bins (a Euro part not available as an option in the US) a carbon fiber dash, carbon fiber mirror housings, racing front end, with fog lamps, larger diameter and larger caliper brakes due to come. I also had a self-dimming mirror with "homelink" garage door openers hardwired into the car.

Oh and I have a few custom buttons added for those "James Bond" moments

I do find it odd that some luxury and performance options are available on other models of the Jetta but not on the TDI (like the auto dimming lights, homelink, etc)

Just rolled over 24,000 miles on the odometer. The car is 10.5 months old. I drive too much!!!

My fuel economy is an honest 39+ miles per gallon for driving around the rural/suburban roads in my normal daily driving.

I've had 1 warranty repair, got a free loaner car, it was fixed in less than a day.

The oil changes and regular maintenance has been free so far. Its due back at the dealer in 6000 miles for the next free service.

The seats are still comfortable but I've found that I'd like a more padded armrest. I am grateful that the armrest is adjustable, that makes up for the modest padding by allowing me to alter its position (up/down/forward/back). Radio is excellent, and I've been using the SIRIUS option pretty regularly. When I purchased the car I didn't realize it, but you can play a DVD while you are parked and it is displayed in the Navigation screen. So I've watched a whole season of DEXTER, 20 minutes at a time, waiting in the school parking lot for my daughter to exit school. The screen blacks out when you start driving.

There is very little rear seat leg room. Its fine for pre-teens and a teen can fit in the back but its not overly comfortable unless the front seat passengers move their seats forward; not a big issue for the front passenger but that may be an issue for the driver, I drive in a fairly upright position but with the seat all the way back in the track. That is not bad for the passenger behind me, but if a front seat is tilted back it really makes the rear passengers area cramped.

The trunk is HUGE for such a small car!

The biggest problem I have now is a bet I made with my daughter. She bet me that she can get a 4.3 grade point average (a 4.0 is a straight "A" average) and if she does then she gets to drive this car to school next year. I think she may win that bet and I may loose my fun little car.

Interesting read...
We had a Subaru Legacy wagon for years that got 30 mpg. I wanted the euro version diesel but was told it wasn't imported (65mpg). Instead we purchased a Grand Cherokee CRD diesel. It was a bit more than the gas engine but we get 28 mpg out of it regularly and it is a pretty heavy SUV. Cushy, too. You do have to keep it under 70 though or it drops down to the low 20's. I towed a car trailer and car to Palmer (about 300 miles) and was still getting 19 mpg at 65 mph. This truck has some serious torque too. I think that the common excuse that they won't sell is a bunch of crap. If people are willing to sacrifice size, comfort, performance and safety for a Prius or Honda, I'd bet they would love having it all with a diesel engine and get the same savings. Maybe it isn't PC or something...

put the jetta engine in the Krusti and really get going

alaska120 said:

Interesting read...
We had a Subaru Legacy wagon for years that got 30 mpg. I wanted the euro version diesel but was told it wasn't imported (65mpg)....

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Subaru has been toying with the diesel engines for the US market for the last couple of years, lots of rumors, even a few announcements but still no diesel Subaru vehicles for the USA. Me, I'd love to get my hands on one! I've been a fan of diesel engines for years, this is my first diesel car and I want more more more!!! If not for the price I'd seriously consider a Mercedes E350 BluTech Diesel but at roughly $55 to $60,000 its a lot of money for a fairly modest size car. At that price I could get a fully loaded SUV with big gas engine and probably a year of gas to put in the tank.

My hope is that in the next model year or two we get a few more diesel choices for the American market. I'd love a larger vehicle than the Jetta, the wife wants to get rid of one of our 2 SUVs and go back to a car. Right now there are 4 choices that I know of. The small Audi A3 5 door hatchback, the 3 series BMW sedan, the VW Jetta TDI sedan/wagon, and the Mercedes E350. There are a few diesel SUVs choices as well, but as I said, she's looking for a car.

BTW, when comparing European mileage per gallon to US mpg we need to realize that in some nations across the Atlantic they use "Imperial" gallons which are larger than our US gallons so they can use the same engine but get better mpg simply because their gallons have more ounces.​

Long have the rumors circulated on Subaru and Honda diesels. Don't hold your breath.

As long as the tree-fornicating morons have anything to say about it, the EPA won't allow them. Remember, they have specifically tailored the laws to measure emissions by volume of fuel burned, rather than by distance traveled.

E.G.: The deck is stacked against diesel engines in highway vehicles with a GVW less than 8500 lbs.

The expense and hassle that VW and Daimler (Daimler-Chrysler-Jeep) go through to get these cars to market is nothing short of a miracle. This is also why you will most likely never see the long rumored 1/2 ton diesel pickups ever again.

The Jeep Liberty CRD held so much promise, but the EPA slammed the door on that one, too.

Diesels are so extremely superior to gasoline engines in every aspect, I could go on and on...

If I was to move down to a car instead of the SUV I would look seriously at the Mercedes. It was our first choice the last time but Chrysler offered us a great deal on the Jeep. They were about $5K difference in price and they have the same engine. The Mercedes 3.0 computer is tweaked a bit for a little more HP.