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CPVC or Copper for house plumbing?

CPVC or Copper?


  • Total voters
    19

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
The house we bought a few years ago was plumbed with PolyBuytlene plumbing. At the time we bought it, I wasn't aware that PB was bad and the home inspector never pointed it out.

Anyways, after a leak this summer I filed a claim to get the house re-plumbed under a class action law suit that was filed a long time ago. It looks like the re-plumbing was approved and they will pay all the costs!:thumb:

I have to choose between CPVC (their preferred choice) or Copper (what I'm leaning towards).

Which do you think I should go with an why?
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Hmmm. :confused2:

I have and use both and prefer each for particular applications.

A couple places that I think each have their place.

For the cold water in mine are copper but I would prefer CPVC since it seems to sweat less.

I've heard CPVC is a bit better insulated than copper on the hot water side.

In places where you need disconnects (e.g. a foot or 2 above the hot water tank) so you can replace the tank easily, I prefer the CPVC there as well since on reconnect, they're easier to connect without leaks.

Behind the tub/shower, I prefer copper. If/when you need to replace spigot or shower head or whatever, quite often they are stuck on pretty tight. The copper is more rigid so it's less likely to bend or snap off behind the wall.

If your house is still being changed/improved or whatever and you may be adding some plumbing in the future, CPVC is much easier to work with.

You didn't mention it but how about PEX tubing? It may be the best option yet, especially on a complete re-do like you're getting.
 

Jim_S

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
PBinWA said:
The house we bought a few years ago was plumbed with PolyBuytlene plumbing. At the time we bought it, I wasn't aware that PB was bad and the home inspector never pointed it out.

Anyways, after a leak this summer I filed a claim to get the house re-plumbed under a class action law suit that was filed a long time ago. It looks like the re-plumbing was approved and they will pay all the costs!:thumb:

I have to choose between CPVC (their preferred choice) or Copper (what I'm leaning towards).

Which do you think I should go with an why?

We bought this place a couple of years ago. It had PB and had several leaks couple out in the piping, three leaks at crimp joints, and a leak in the manifold. We filed a claim and got it repiped. Since we are on well water they wouldn't guarantee copper for longer than 1 year so we went with the cpvc. They did install a couple of feed of copper on the connections to the hot water heater. The rest is cpvc.

I've seen a lot of copper leak problems reported in the papers, primarily in Maryland but a few in Virginia. In Maryland they seemed to suspect additives put in the water by the water authority. I haven't seen anything on this for a while. Maybe Gatorboy has an update since he is in maryland.

Jim
 

daedong

New member
Interesting topic, I have never heard of CPVC piping being used here in OZ, we still use polybutylene to the best of my knowledge. Is this product not used anymore in the USA and is it inferior to CPVC
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
bczoom said:
You didn't mention it but how about PEX tubing? It may be the best option yet, especially on a complete re-do like you're getting.

I was given the option of CPVC or Copper not PEX.

Which one endures freezing better? That is the one thing that would most likely cause damage to our pipes. We can get some extreme wind and ice storms that knock the power out and can get one side of the house really cold.

I'm not entirely against CPVC but I thought copper might be better and has a long and proven record. I'm not worried about the holes in the wall as my house is a work in progress.:whistle: It's under constant re-modelling.
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
daedong said:
Is this product not used anymore in the USA and is it inferior to CPVC
Correct. No longer used and inferior to CPVC.

It's believed oxidants in public water systems (e.g. chlorine) react with the polybutylene and causes the pipe to flake and become brittle. This then leads to leaks.

Although the manufacturer didn't admit it was defective, they put almost a billion dollars into a fund for a class-action lawsuit to have the pipes replaced.
 

Cowboyjg

Country Club Member
Site Supporter
I actually prefer Pex but because that's not an option my choice is CPVC. Copper tubing, like alot of things, is not what it used to be. The expense associated with it has resulted in the manufacturers reducing the wall thickness of the pipe. Another issue with copper is the reaction to and subsequent degredation from the minerals and chemicals found in most water. Also, CPVC is easier to work with when it comes to repairs. As far as the insulative effects are concerned, the difference would favor CPVC but is really negligable in the big picture.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
daedong said:
Interesting topic, I have never heard of CPVC piping being used here in OZ, we still use polybutylene to the best of my knowledge. Is this product not used anymore in the USA and is it inferior to CPVC

I guess PB piping was crappy when it first came out and was subject to one of the biggest class action lawsuit settlements in the USA.

Here's two links:

http://www.polybutylene.com/

http://www.pbpipe.com

The second one is where you make a claim!;)

In our case it cracked around one of the fittings. The time limit for claiming on our house was coming up and I jumped on the claim process as fast as I can.
 

Dargo

Like a bad penny...
GOLD Site Supporter
Wow, I gotta admit that I'm shocked. Around where I live, anything but copper on the pressurized side is a huge deduction in the value of the home. The builders around here call the plastic "mobile home stuff" on the pressure side. On the drain side, nobody uses black iron anymore and plastic is almost exclusively used.

At my last house I had several breaks in the plumbing that opened up if someone shut off a faucet too fast and jolted the plumbing. I can recall only too well the sound of water spraying the backside of a wall where the pipe had come apart at a fitting between the wall. I suppose different areas use different materials. With the 60+ psi pressure I have here, I couldn't imagine using anything but copper.

Oh well, that goes to show that I don't know squat about how homes are built in different areas. :eek:
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
jim slagle said:
We bought this place a couple of years ago. It had PB and had several leaks couple out in the piping, three leaks at crimp joints, and a leak in the manifold. We filed a claim and got it repiped. Since we are on well water they wouldn't guarantee copper for longer than 1 year so we went with the cpvc. They did install a couple of feed of copper on the connections to the hot water heater. The rest is cpvc.

Hi Jim,

I'm glad to here it went well for you. Any advice on your claim and re-pipe experience? I just got the "work order" form today and have to send the form in within 15 days.

Did they do what they said they would do? How long did it take to re-pipe your house?
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
PBinWA said:
I was given the option of CPVC or Copper not PEX.
It may be worth asking about. It's a very slick system and what they would save in labor installing this might cover the extra cost of the material.

Copper does have a proven track record and is still believed its servicable life is greater than CPVC (although CPVC hasn't been around long enough to know for sure).

If you're going to be changing/adding plumbing yourself as you re-do things in the house, remember with copper, you have to drain the lines and such before soldering. Also the steps required for tapping into copper are more tedious than with CPVC.

For freezing, copper holds up better but I'd address/resolve the potential for freezing for either type used. There's the heat tape you can use but it requires electricity...

Ohhh. Something else I've heard (but can't confirm). Rodents (rats, mice, opossom...) may like to eat CPVC. If you have a crawl space or area that may be subject to varmints, you may want copper in those areas.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Actually, it was my insurance agent that had a hissy fit when he found out our house had PB piping. He said they wouldn't have insured the house if they had known that when I took out the policy. I think he didn't update my record though and just hoped it wouldn't cause him to get in trouble!
 

Jim_S

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
PBinWA said:
Hi Jim,

I'm glad to here it went well for you. Any advice on your claim and re-pipe experience? I just got the "work order" form today and have to send the form in within 15 days.

Did they do what they said they would do? How long did it take to re-pipe your house?

They did it before we moved in so it didn't take long. The crew was 4 folks the first day and 2 drywall guys the next two days.

It took them 2 1/2 days. First day they cut out the drywall and completely did the repipe. 2600 sq ft 2 story home 4 br, 2 1/2 bath with full unfinished basement. Second day was inspection and beginning of drywall repairs. Third morning finish drywall. It would have been another day if they painted. We were completely repainting so we skipped that part.

Overall they did what they said they would do. The laundry room is on a slab and the pipes run through the attic. They didn't get enough insulation on them and they froze a couple of times the first winter. They came back on warranty and added insulation and fixed the problem.

Jim
 

thcri

Gone But Not Forgotten
I voted for copper. I don'tl think CPVC is even allowed in Minnesota. PEX is nice except for the taste that it can give over copper. My house has copper but do wished it was PEX.


murph
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
jim slagle said:
They did it before we moved in so it didn't take long. The crew was 4 folks the first day and 2 drywall guys the next two days.

It took them 2 1/2 days. First day they cut out the drywall and completely did the repipe. 2600 sq ft 2 story home 4 br, 2 1/2 bath with full unfinished basement. Second day was inspection and beginning of drywall repairs. Third morning finish drywall. It would have been another day if they painted. We were completely repainting so we skipped that part.

Overall they did what they said they would do. The laundry room is on a slab and the pipes run through the attic. They didn't get enough insulation on them and they froze a couple of times the first winter. They came back on warranty and added insulation and fixed the problem.

Jim

Thanks Jim!

It will probably take them a little longer with my house. The main reason the building inspector didn't notice the PB was that all the plumbing in the house is enclosed (3400 Sq ft 4 Baths) with copper stub outs. I didn't find it until I put in a new hot water heater and broke one of the stub outs off the wall and had to cut into the wall to re-attach it.

Nice to know it isn't a month long project (I hope).
 

Cityboy

Banned
I had my house piped with PEX when I built it. I have copper stub-outs at each fixture. Ask if PEX could be an option, it just might be. What sold me on PEX is that it can freeze and thaw without bursting. The vast majority of plumbers in my region have switched to PEX. So far, so good. Lowes and Home Depot have been carrying PEX pipe and fittings for several years now.

Copper is an excellent pipe, but what thickness will they use? All metal pipes thin over time with use and some are suceptable to mineral damage. I've seen 20 year old copper pipe being replaced that was thin as paper. Find out what grade copper they will use before you decide.

CPVC is also a good product, but must be installed properly with the proper primer and glue. Around here, the plumbers used to use schedule 40 PVC for cold water lines and CPVC for the hot water lines. Now, those that have not switched to PEX use a product called CPVC-Gold for all water lines.

Here are some links:

http://www.terrylove.com/pipe.htm

http://www.flowguardgold.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PEX
 

dzalphakilo

Banned
Likewise, I'd go with PEX piping as well.

If you do an internet search pertaining to the new Cleveland Browns football stadium, they had a very interesting job using PEX pipe underneath the playing field. Very interesting job. Point being that you won't have any issues with the PEX piping.

Now, if you want to get fancy, and if you get allot of cold weather and snow, down the road if you want to spend the money you could lay out the PEX pipe in your driveway and use it as a "snowmelt", basically (sp?) when everyone else has snow or ice on their dirveway or walkway, you litterally melt it away having to do nothing. You get some very surprised looks from people when they see a "dry" driveway when there is snow and ice everywhere else.

Don't do many of those jobs now in N.C:confused2:
 

rlk

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
PB, a couple of things to think about:

If you are on a well, and have acid in your water, or other chemicals that are not compatible with copper, then I would go with CPVC. If you are on a city water system, I would choose copper, assuming they use the thicker copper.

While CPVC is easier to work with than copper, if you are on a city water system, and have high pressure, you are supposed to let the CPVC cure for quite a while prior to turning the water back on. While it is not common, I have heard of guys not waiting for the joint to cure, and turning the water back on early, and the joint starts to leak. With copper, there is no waiting time for the joint to cure.

Either one is a fine product - CPVC is a little easier for the do-it-yourself type of guy, but copper seems to me to be more durable.

My wife's brother in law had his house re-plumbed under this class action. The downstairs walls were wallpapered. They could not find wallpaper that matched, so they had all their downstairs wall paper replaced as part of the class action.

The company did a good job with the re-plumbing, but it is hard to live in the house while they are tearing into the walls. The drywall dust gets everywhere, and plumbers are kind of messy.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Bob
 

Junkman

Extra Super Moderator
When I built my home in 1982, I installed copper pipes throughout, except for the drains. I used only L gauge, because the M, which was less expensive I felt was too thin. L is generally accepted as the standard for both home and commercial work. When copper is burried underground, they use K, but I haven't heard of anyone using copper for underground water lines in many years. I remember that our old house had the lead pipe from the street replaced by a 2" copper K line. that was back in the 1950's. I have no experiance using CPVC except for the water piping that we used in the stores to supply the aquarium rooms, and there was never a problem with it. I have my reservations as to how well it will hold up over time. I do remember a few times when the glued joints would fail, but never figured out why they failed after a few years, rather than when first installed. I just installed a new water heater in the cellar and the building code now requires the use of no lead solder, which is a real pain to use. The old 50/50 (lead/tin) solder would flow nicely around the sweated joint. The new 95/5 (tin/antimony) solder just doesn't flow as well and requires more heat. I figured that 99% of the rest of the pipes have the 50/50 solder, so I dug out an old roll of 50/50 and used that. No leaks and the joints all look professionally done. The trick of getting a good soldered joint is to clean it well and use a lot of soldering paste on both halves. Then heat the joint at the farthest point and apply the solder. If you have the joint properly heated, the solder will be pulled in toward the heat and you should have a joint that will not leak. Working with 1/2" copper is a walk in the park. Working with 1" copper is much more difficult and requires a much hotter flame to get a good joint. The largest that I have ever worked with was 4" copper pipe. That was used for drains, and I think that I sweated doing it, as much as the pipe did..... :D
 

Doc

Bottoms Up
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Good info Junk.
I didn't know they did away with the old 50/50 solder. Did the lead eventually get into the water supply and cause health problems for the homeowners?

I've done my share of sweating copper joints and like Junk said it's easy if you clean em up good, flux em and heat one side and apply the solder to the other. The solder sucks around the joint and normally it's water tight for life.

I just had a water heater replaced (under warranty for a change) and they had this do-hicky that created a compression fitting right there on sight to connect both 3/4" copper pipes for the water heater. I thought it curious at the time, but now I'd guess that is because the new solder mixture is harder to work with.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Thanks Everyone.

I think I'm going to go with copper. A friend of mine (I wish I knew him when I bought the place) is a home inspector and he felt copper was the best choice between the two. He said that if pex was an option to go with that but I don't think it is. It looks like copper is used in most of the "high end" homes around here so I may as well go with it.

I'm not scared of working with copper as I've done it before. It's as easy as working with the newer compression fittings and may even be easier in tight places where it's hard to turn a wrench. I wonder if the higher heat requirements of the new solder is why you are seeing MAPP gas pushed more in all the Home Improvement Centers.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Hmmm . . So they specify Type M Copper pipe.

I think I'll still go with Copper. From a re-sale perspective I think copper is a better choice. I don't plan on living in this house forever.

Thanks again everyone.

PB
 

Junkman

Extra Super Moderator
The cost between M and L is about 1/3 more. See if they will put L in the walls where it counts. In the open areas, the M should be fine.
 

Junkman

Extra Super Moderator
Doc said:
Good info Junk.
I didn't know they did away with the old 50/50 solder. Did the lead eventually get into the water supply and cause health problems for the homeowners?

Doc..... It is the current rage to remove lead from all of our society, so that is the reason for the removal. I grew up around leaded gasoline, we had lead water pipes leading into the house, there was lead paint on the walls, I played with lead soldiers, and guess what..... I don't believe that I am brain damaged from lead.... your opinions might differ, and I implore you to keep them to yourselves.... :respect:
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Junkman said:
Doc..... It is the current rage to remove lead from all of our society, so that is the reason for the removal. I grew up around leaded gasoline, we had lead water pipes leading into the house, there was lead paint on the walls, I played with lead soldiers, and guess what..... I don't believe that I am brain damaged from lead.... your opinions might differ, and I implore you to keep them to yourselves.... :respect:

Junk you sound like my Dad telling me how he grew up with oil, grease, and diesel everywhere and he's fine. Well actually he's a grumpy, opinionated SOB . . . . kind of like someone else I know! :whistle:
 
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