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Brake Steer vs Hydro - school me

MNoutdoors RIP

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As a thought exercise I've sketched out a concept of using two engines. One powers each track through a transmission. Turning is by varying the engine speed(s). Shifting the transmission is by a linked shifter so each transmission is in the same gear. The link could be disabled allowing one transmission to be in reverse for spin turning.



Manual transmissions would be the most efficient, and would be clutched by one clutch pedal.



Looking at the industrial yanmar diesels (40+/- hp ea) two side by side would be a fairly easy fit. The electronic common rail fuel systems are very responsive and reliable. By staying small the lighter aluminum block can be used as opposed to going a single larger iron block engine.



Don't really think it would be practical, but I don't think it is any crazier than some of the stuff that has been built.



You can do it with one power source and a splitter gearbox, but now your back to
The 4T Thiokol drivetrain basically
 

MNoutdoors RIP

Gone But Not Forgotten
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You could do it the Russian way.......

Locked diff, two clutches,one each side.and 2 caliper brakes, one each side.
Disengage one or the other clutch for a simple course adjustment.
Major turn disengage clutch and apply brake, rotating the one track around the other.

This has been done on several past vehicles and it currently in use on some Russian and Canadian and Australian machines
 

undy

New member
You could do it the Russian way.......

Locked diff, two clutches,one each side.and 2 caliper brakes, one each side.
Disengage one or the other clutch for a simple course adjustment.
Major turn disengage clutch and apply brake, rotating the one track around the other.

This has been done on several past vehicles and it currently in use on some Russian and Canadian and Australian machines

That's basically what was on the Easy Rider (PassParTout) I used to own. It was a remarkably accurate way to steer. I could drive the thing around within my shop, weaving around the hoist, etc. Didn't go too fast compared to a snowmobile, but it did fine compared to a snowcat.
 

MNoutdoors RIP

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
You could do it the Russian way.......

Locked diff, two clutches,one each side.and 2 caliper brakes, one each side.
Disengage one or the other clutch for a simple course adjustment.
Major turn disengage clutch and apply brake, rotating the one track around the other.

This has been done on several past vehicles and it currently in use on some Russian and Canadian and Australian machines



This seems to work ok on light machines and very little payload and drawbar pull, With the amount of drawbar pull you want,the diff and clutches and brakes would need to be large. And remember if you do a lot of climbing you are only driving with one track during a course correction so the climbing ability will be less than a controlled diff or hydro or even a SNOWTRAC ..........
 
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You could do it the Russian way.......

Locked diff, two clutches,one each side.and 2 caliper brakes, one each side.
Disengage one or the other clutch for a simple course adjustment.
Major turn disengage clutch and apply brake, rotating the one track around the other.

This has been done on several past vehicles and it currently in use on some Russian and Canadian and Australian machines

That is basically how my old JD440I/C (dozer) worked. Probably the best steering direct drive track layer I ever had and I never understood why the snowcat industry didn't use that method.

I personally love hydrostatic and have probably close to 8,000 hrs running Pisten Bullys and personally would hate to ever go back to a direct drive snowcat.

If I were to ever build my own small/personal design I would start out with a Bobcat or other skid steer and adapt to a imp or Bombi style chassis. I don't see the benefit of building everything from scratch unless you had deep deep pockets

For the pulling power you are describing Nixson, I would buy a PB200D and modify the chassis and tracks to suit your needs. They can be found very cheep with lots of life left in them.
 

louis

Member
I know it is at the end of the rainbow but if you are looking for traction ( flotability) and steering : EMOND 6X6
Traction: full track " no tunnel"
Steering: articulated vehicle
 

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rockhead

Member
For an ultra-light concept --- start with a two door geo tracker, rip out the standard rear-end and chop in a second steering diff as found up front. Now you've tucker turning style without the turntables
 

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luvthemvws

Active member
I think this discussion is veering wildly over-the-top.
I think your parameters are describing two different cats.
The 35mph capable machine with room for 12 people plus all their stuff, all under 8000 pounds, (how many Russian kilos is that?), is definitely doable in Bombardier snow coach. Their art deco styling in your artistic hands would be an awesome creation! It might even support a modest front blade.
To be capable of towing 15,000 pounds, through snow, on an incline, and to push substantial amounts of snow, will require a brutish workhorse that will detract from all those previous capabilities.
But hey, if you choose to attempt such a single machine, no one will be more interested in the buildup than me!
 

Nikson

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
I think this discussion is veering wildly over-the-top.
I think your parameters are describing two different cats.
The 35mph capable machine with room for 12 people plus all their stuff, all under 8000 pounds, (how many Russian kilos is that?), is definitely doable in Bombardier snow coach. Their art deco styling in your artistic hands would be an awesome creation! It might even support a modest front blade.
To be capable of towing 15,000 pounds, through snow, on an incline, and to push substantial amounts of snow, will require a brutish workhorse that will detract from all those previous capabilities.
But hey, if you choose to attempt such a single machine, no one will be more interested in the buildup than me!

I know it is at the end of the rainbow but if you are looking for traction ( flotability) and steering : EMOND 6X6
Traction: full track " no tunnel"
Steering: articulated vehicle

That is basically how my old JD440I/C (dozer) worked. Probably the best steering direct drive track layer I ever had and I never understood why the snowcat industry didn't use that method.

I personally love hydrostatic and have probably close to 8,000 hrs running Pisten Bullys and personally would hate to ever go back to a direct drive snowcat.

If I were to ever build my own small/personal design I would start out with a Bobcat or other skid steer and adapt to a imp or Bombi style chassis. I don't see the benefit of building everything from scratch unless you had deep deep pockets

For the pulling power you are describing Nixson, I would buy a PB200D and modify the chassis and tracks to suit your needs. They can be found very cheep with lots of life left in them.


Thank you everyone (again) for the input, all information aside, I'm researching/digging the web for all I can get right now, as suggested - deep pockets - God knows - but I wont start the build until I know the needed budget, wont be something that I'll expand on later, it will be either done, or just never started.

At this point, as the whole "build" gains its potential, there is a good chance that I might get myself a LMC1500/Spryte/1200/1800 Beartrac or something within those lines, as I need a "capable" cat to do things that I do in the snow, while this whole idea "cooks" in my head along with my garage.

I guess time will show, and do continue this conversation if anyone got any other thoughts/ideas.

p.s. I did find "limits" of Frandee this weekend, but they were very "acceptable" even in my opinion...

Carry on... :eatdrink::eatdrink::eatdrink::clap::clap::clap:
 

turbinator62

Active member
Site Supporter
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I don't think you could go wrong with a 1500 for what you want to do and it is relatively modern. The AMC 258 is a good engine. Parts should be no problem. I had an 83 Eagle with that engine. They were also used in Jeeps. I really had my eye on one of those but it was just too big a machine for my needs. I don't think it matters what you buy, it will be "Nixonized" in short order and better than new.:respect:
 

redsqwrl

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
variator vs controlled diff.

the A model spryte is a nimble light cat that can do an amazing amount of things well.

but if you take the path less traveled and need to make up some time.......

https://youtu.be/ZVKuRqQirV8

You probably want a tucker........
 

m1west

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
I was at remote access service in Sacramento ca. a couple of months ago getting parts and I'm pretty sure I remember seeing either a OC12 or a OC15 on a pallet there. Martin
 

battdad

Member
Here is a pic of my hydro cat that is not even close to being finished but recently released from the shop to work some bugs out...and bugs there are.
This is my first twin track machine so I am deffinately not speaking from experience but I really do enjoy operating it, it is pretty effortless to maneuver it where I want it to go.
I work for a railroad and have spent a lot of time around hydraulic drive systems on our on track equipment. Some of our heavier machines have 2 hydraulic drive motors, when you want lots of torque and slow speed, both motors get equal amount of fluid, when you want higher speeds, the fluid is diverted to just one motor allowing faster travel speed but lower torque.
Not sure if something like this would be helpful or not but it is worth putting it out there.
My cat started life as a nodwell of sorts with a v-4 gas that was severely under powered, it now has a turbo diesel yanmar that seems to be plenty of power.
In my uneducated opinion, I think hydro would be awesome for your dream cat, you will just need more power to push all the oil
8c8fc02618e3232b60dbafcc6733b403.jpg
fbb93ebb1703e5f291022842c4ceb905.jpg
b236c328b3e705c9600f109fbd5d1a03.jpg


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
 

Nikson

Bronze Member
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I was at remote access service in Sacramento ca. a couple of months ago getting parts and I'm pretty sure I remember seeing either a OC12 or a OC15 on a pallet there. Martin


Would love to find out on the cost of those 2 if any available
 

Nikson

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Here is a pic of my hydro cat that is not even close to being finished but recently released from the shop to work some bugs out...and bugs there are.
This is my first twin track machine so I am deffinately not speaking from experience but I really do enjoy operating it, it is pretty effortless to maneuver it where I want it to go.
I work for a railroad and have spent a lot of time around hydraulic drive systems on our on track equipment. Some of our heavier machines have 2 hydraulic drive motors, when you want lots of torque and slow speed, both motors get equal amount of fluid, when you want higher speeds, the fluid is diverted to just one motor allowing faster travel speed but lower torque.
Not sure if something like this would be helpful or not but it is worth putting it out there.
My cat started life as a nodwell of sorts with a v-4 gas that was severely under powered, it now has a turbo diesel yanmar that seems to be plenty of power.
In my uneducated opinion, I think hydro would be awesome for your dream cat, you will just need more power to push all the oil
8c8fc02618e3232b60dbafcc6733b403.jpg
fbb93ebb1703e5f291022842c4ceb905.jpg
b236c328b3e705c9600f109fbd5d1a03.jpg


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


Good looking machine you have there.
Now I guess I just need to talk to a good hydralics engineer so he can set me straight on possible costs of pumps & motors and could figure what would be a right engine for all those, considering my requirements.
 

Snowtrac Nome

member formerly known as dds
GOLD Site Supporter
Nixon revisiting this old thread, I know I don't own anything orange in color but I still think tuckers quad track design. is the best for high speed cross county travel. I will admit my new light foot has an impressive ride quality, but a quad track system with a suspension and a one piece light rubber track could move faster than I could in the light foot. I might add that the 2 speed m29 diff is a real impressive diff for a 6k machine I had to drive it on the road to get it home after the road ate my trailer and I was crusing along at 25 mph in second high I still had another gear to go
 

Thefatsquatch

Active member
Ok Guys. Here comes some dubious thought and questionable information on the subject from the new guy because I have thought about this same thing a LOT, and came to a similar conclusion to Nikson's original thoughts. Without spending a ridiculous amount of money on a newer cat, anything I get is going to be older, have one-off, experimental, or very limited supply of parts.
So, I started looking into building new machines, with readily available, even common, parts.
In fact my first thought was to just build the lower half of a snowcat, and size it to plop jeep Cherokee bodies on top of it. Motor, transmission and all.
My oc-12 differential does speed up the opposite track when one is stopped. Maybe it isn't supposed to, but I didn't see any clutches in the differential. Just a lot of gears with a lot of contact area.
So, I hazard I could use a military axle. I bought a Rockwell 2.5 ton rear end. Elevated input shaft, reversible wheel spacing, and extremely heavy duty brakes and gears. At low speed, Drums actually work better for heat dispersion than disks, so I figure I will leave them. And, the back has a spot for a drive shaft parking brake too.
If I run either another sprocket on the front, or a considerable amount of track tension, I should be able to run parallel brake lines to the front wheel as well, and double the turning power while avoiding too much track tension/stress while turning.
If Bud beats me to it, then he can tell me how it works! lol
 
I see this is an aging thread yet I have to ask or at least point out- the LMC 3700C (that would be C for Caterpillar 3208) is of course hydrostatic and 12’ wide or so, but does come with three speeds. I was warned not to go too fast as destruction would ensue from having that much weight being thrown around at speed but do remember going along at a decent clip.
One advantage of the hydro power that has been left out is that it is infinitely variable, within the limits of the engine power of course.
Blah blah blah. This debate could go on forever.
Two cents for a setup?
The Thiokol Jugernaut 8T
Start there and apply modern tech for a lighter vehicle. You can pm me for more info if needed.
 

Nikson

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Ok Guys. Here comes some dubious thought and questionable information on the subject from the new guy because I have thought about this same thing a LOT, and came to a similar conclusion to Nikson's original thoughts. Without spending a ridiculous amount of money on a newer cat, anything I get is going to be older, have one-off, experimental, or very limited supply of parts.
So, I started looking into building new machines, with readily available, even common, parts.
In fact my first thought was to just build the lower half of a snowcat, and size it to plop jeep Cherokee bodies on top of it. Motor, transmission and all.
My oc-12 differential does speed up the opposite track when one is stopped. Maybe it isn't supposed to, but I didn't see any clutches in the differential. Just a lot of gears with a lot of contact area.
So, I hazard I could use a military axle. I bought a Rockwell 2.5 ton rear end. Elevated input shaft, reversible wheel spacing, and extremely heavy duty brakes and gears. At low speed, Drums actually work better for heat dispersion than disks, so I figure I will leave them. And, the back has a spot for a drive shaft parking brake too.
If I run either another sprocket on the front, or a considerable amount of track tension, I should be able to run parallel brake lines to the front wheel as well, and double the turning power while avoiding too much track tension/stress while turning.
If Bud beats me to it, then he can tell me how it works! lol

Yes, an aging thread this is...
My hands been occupied in totally different field of R&D and projects, as I've settled down recently with my 1544 Tucker, that I believe is still most expensive Tucker ever bought "without the engine" LOL
Anyways, after running around for couple of winters in the tucker, I must say that I've not found many "hickups/dislikes" about the tucker's setup and the way it operates.
Turntables definitely do their job right, allowing one to turn without loosing speed, with 4 tracks - yes, one might find themselves in a "pickle" of being stuck in some washout hole, and have more difficult time vs a 2 track machine, but I think that least of the worries, as if you know how to run your machine - you will recover, afterall - I think we "cat owners" are all somewhat adrenaline junkies - going out into the unknown with only "few" who could rescue us.
At this point, if I'm to build anything from scratch - most likely it would be in a similar way as the tucker, due to parts supplies, unless I find an OC12 for really good price, along with some tracks ready to go (as those are TIME consuming to build)

Let it snow... I hear the winter is coming
 
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