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Religion of Peace: Wife Beating Allowed

Melensdad

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I found this pretty interesting. I have to think the animal rights crowd would have their undies in a bunch over much of this. I wonder what Ms Pelosi thinks too?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,307680,00.html
Saudi Marriage 'Expert' Advises Men in 'Right Way' to Beat Their Wives

Move over, Dr. Phil, there's a new relationship expert in town.

He's Saudi author and cleric, "Dr." Muhammad Al-'Arifi, who in a remarkable segment broadcast on Saudi and Kuwaiti television in September, counseled young Muslim men on how to treat their wives.

"Admonish them – once, twice, three times, four times, ten times," he advised. "If this doesn't help, refuse to share their beds." And if that doesn't work? "Beat them," one of his three young advisees responded.

"That's right," Al-'Arifi said.

Click here to view the segment at MEMRITV.org


He goes on to calmly explain to the young men that hitting their future wives in the face is a no-no.
"Beating in the face is forbidden, even when it comes to animals," he explained. "Even if you want your camel or donkey to start walking, you are not allowed to beat it in the face. If this is true for animals, it is all the more true when it comes to humans. So beatings should be light and not in the face.

His final words of wisdom?

"Woman, it has gone too far. I can't bear it anymore," he tells the men to tell their wives. "If he beats her, the beatings must be light and must not make her face ugly.

"He must beat her where it will not leave marks. He should not beat her on the hand... He should beat her in some places where it will not cause any damage. He should not beat her like he would beat an animal or a child -- slapping them right and left.

"Unfortunately, many husbands beat their wives only when they get mad, and when they start beating, it as if they are punching a wall – they beat with their hands, right and left, and sometimes use their feet. Brother, it is a human being you are beating. This is forbidden. He must not do this."

Take that, Match.com!

 

daedong

New member
I would actually describe this cleric as a moderate due to several comments, e.g. "So beatings should be light and not in the face."

Playing the devils advocate he may actually be lessening the harsh beatings that occur in the Muslim world. Traditionally Muslims have had brutal wife beating practices. This guy may have good intentions, it is not possible to change ingrained traditions over night.

Unfortunately wife beating is not exclusive to Muslims, it goes on in many societies, do a search on India and Hindus, look at many Christian Religions, they may not condone beating wives and children but they often turn a blind eye, is that any better?
 

Melensdad

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Unfortunately wife beating is not exclusive to Muslims, it goes on in many societies, do a search on India and Hindus, look at many Christian Religions, they may not condone beating wives and children but they often turn a blind eye, is that any better?

I know of no established Christian religion that tolerates or condones wife beating. I don't believe, but don't know for fact, that the Hindu religion tolerates wife beating. I know there are CULTURAL practices in societies where it occurs. Here in the US it happens every day, but it also lands many men in jail, often for long times. Most, if not all, western societies consider it a crime. I presume other civilized societies treat it the same way.

I would actually describe this cleric as a moderate due to several comments, e.g. "So beatings should be light and not in the face."
I agree with you on this point and the fact that this man is a voice of moderation suggests that this is a far more serious issue than most people realize.
 

BoneheadNW

New member
I guess that in Saudia Arabia, there are many less 9-1-1 calls, as at least in my area, a big % of 9-1-1 calls are for domestic violence.

By the way Bob, I just noticed part of your sig line:
911, government sponsored Dial-A-Prayer . . . when seconds count the police are minutes away!
What is the story behind that?
Bone
 

Melensdad

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By the way Bob, I just noticed part of your sig line:
911, government sponsored Dial-A-Prayer . . . when seconds count the police are minutes away!
What is the story behind that?
Bone

My alarm went off at the house. My neighbor called the sheriff and told them there was a break in at my home. I was not home, in fact I was 30 minutes away. The alarm company called me, my neighbor also called me. I drove home. 15 minutes after I had inspected the house and found a malfunction of my alarm, a county helicopter was hovering over my driveway. So response time was 45+ minutes to the 'emergency' that was called in by my neighbor. I walked out my front door, waved to the guy in the helicopter and he flew away. He had no idea if I was the homeowner, a neighbor, burglar, or escaped convict. I relayed that story to several friends who are police officers and each one of them essentially told me the same story, each one said the safety of my home, family and self was totally dependent upon me. They said even in town the response time is minutes and lots of very bad things can happen before they arrive. So it is just my bitter little experience that turned out "ok" for me, but it is a concise statement of reality in one sentence.
 

BoneheadNW

New member
I completely understand. I was shocked when I learned that in my little corner of the world there are only 2 patrol cars on duty during the night and early moring hours. Probably explains why those cops are allowed to drive at excessive speed (when I say excessive, I mean that they have passed me when my lights and siren were on).
In the end, it will be up to you and your neighbors to look out for eachother.
Bone
 

dsgsr

New member
My alarm went off at the house. My neighbor called the sheriff and told them there was a break in at my home. I was not home, in fact I was 30 minutes away. The alarm company called me, my neighbor also called me. I drove home. 15 minutes after I had inspected the house and found a malfunction of my alarm, a county helicopter was hovering over my driveway. So response time was 45+ minutes to the 'emergency' that was called in by my neighbor. I walked out my front door, waved to the guy in the helicopter and he flew away. He had no idea if I was the homeowner, a neighbor, burglar, or escaped convict. I relayed that story to several friends who are police officers and each one of them essentially told me the same story, each one said the safety of my home, family and self was totally dependent upon me. They said even in town the response time is minutes and lots of very bad things can happen before they arrive. So it is just my bitter little experience that turned out "ok" for me, but it is a concise statement of reality in one sentence.


The only way to change that is to fund for more police officers, Don't blame the officers because they can't be everywhere at once.

David
 

Deadly Sushi

The One, The Only, Sushi
SUPER Site Supporter
The only way to change that is to fund for more police officers, Don't blame the officers because they can't be everywhere at once.

I agree but 45 minutes??? That is excessive. I wonder what happened. :confused2:
 

ddrane2115

Charter Member
SUPER Site Supporter
there was a shooting in a town close to my home. 2 youths were killed, police responded very quickly, 15 minutes from the time of the call...........the police station is across the street from where the shooting took place. Tell me again about response times. I am aqainted with a friend of the 2 killed, I know this is not an inflation of the truth. I have seen as many as 4 police cars in the Mcd's at one time...........

I have total respect for law enforcement that works, but come on across the street!
 

daedong

New member
I know of no established Christian religion that tolerates or condones wife beating. I don't believe, but don't know for fact, that the Hindu religion tolerates wife beating. I know there are CULTURAL practices in societies where it occurs. Here in the US it happens every day, but it also lands many men in jail, often for long times. Most, if not all, western societies consider it a crime. I presume other civilized societies treat it the same way.

.

Bob, by lack of intervention well established Christian leaders do tolerate and condone wife beating.
You may like to read this.
http://www.talk2action.org/story/20..._military/Domestic_Violence_Dobson_and_Denial


Entertainment Value :yum: http://christiandomesticdiscipline.com/Home.html
 

Melensdad

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Staff member
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Bob, by lack of intervention well established Christian leaders do tolerate and condone wife beating.
You may like to read this.
http://www.talk2action.org/story/20..._military/Domestic_Violence_Dobson_and_Denial
Vin, I've never said there are not bad people in every church, or in every institution. What I said was that I know of no Christian religion that actually condones wife beating as part of its religion. Certainly some people are wife beaters. Certainly action should be taken against them, and certainly some people turn a deaf ear to problems when they should not. But the established religions do not condone it but still it is easy to find abuse.

The only way to change that is to fund for more police officers, Don't blame the officers because they can't be everywhere at once.

David
David, I do not blame the police officers, I only cite it as a statement of fact. I have a couple good friends who are officers and they are the ones who have suggested that I embrace reality.
Deadly Sushi said:
I agree but 45 minutes??? That is excessive. I wonder what happened.
I am protected by the county sheriff. I live a good 30+ minute drive from where they are located. I presume that they did not have a car in my area and perhaps the closest cars were busy. Still, flying in a helicopter seems silly.
 

daedong

New member
Vin, I've never said there are not bad people in every church, or in every institution. What I said was that I know of no Christian religion that actually condones wife beating as part of its religion. Certainly some people are wife beaters. Certainly action should be taken against them, and certainly some people turn a deaf ear to problems when they should not. But the established religions do not condone it but still it is easy to find abuse.

Bob The leaders of established religions do condone and tolerate wife beating through lack of action.
 

Melensdad

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Staff member
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Bob The leaders of established religions do condone and tolerate wife beating through lack of action.
We simply disagree on this, at least with regard to the major religions. I won't speak to the minor faiths as I don't know them. But there is no religious leader who condones it through lack of action. There may well be many within the various churches who take lack of action to protect their peers, but that would be against the teaching of the churches and the words and works of the leaders.
 

Melensdad

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Apparently KIDNAPPING, forced religious conversion & RAPE are fair game under the rules of the "Religion of Peace"

This from Asia News:
11/02/2007 14:30
PAKISTAN
An 18-year-old Christian woman raped and forced to convert to Islam

by Qaiser Felix

Faisalabad (AsiaNews) – A young Christian woman was kidnapped, raped and forced to convert to Islam by a Muslim man in Faisalabad, Khalil Tahir, chairman of “Adal Trust,” a free legal aid organisation that helps minorities, told AsiaNews.

According to early reports, 18-year-old Razia went to visit her aunt on October 21 but never came home. Her parents went out looking for her but to no avail. They also contacted a Muslim man, Sajid, who had harassed her in the past, but he denied any knowledge of her whereabouts.

Razia did eventually make it home on October 31 in a state of shock. She told her parents that Sajid had abducted her, repeatedly raped her and forced her to convert to Islam. She is currently under medical care.

“The girl’s father went to the police to file a complaint on the evening of Razia’s return, but they were reluctant to register the case fearing that it might get out of proportion because of its religious element,” Khalil Tahir told AsiaNews.

For the time being “that man is free,” he said. “He can do whatever he wants,” he added, “but as a lawyer I’ll do everything in my power to help the family get justice in a Pakistani court.”​
 

Av8r3400

Gone Flyin'
F-ing animals, sub-human animals, all of them. Period.

Especially the 'moderates' that do not say anything against these (and the many, many more) barbaric practices of their 'religion.'
 

daedong

New member
But there is no religious leader who condones it through lack of action. There may well be many within the various churches who take lack of action to protect their peers, but that would be against the teaching of the churches and the words and works of the leaders.

Bob you are far from open minded on the topic, take your Hawaiian shirt off for five minutes and open your eyes.

http://paskewich.typepad.com/paskewichcom/2006/10/domestic_violen.html
http://figtree.gonzaga.edu/Nov04images/violence.html
http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/rossi1.asp
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=9517
http://www.mediatransparency.org/story.php?storyID=203
 

Melensdad

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Staff member
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Vin, another 'definition of terms' issues between our cultures. I've heard/seen bishops, cardinals and the Pope address this issue. I consider religious leaders to be the heads of the church. While I did not explicitly write that above, I did attempt to clearly imply it within the entire context of what was written. Christianity does not support wife beating, rape, sex with boys . . . but yet there are members who have committed those sins against the teaching of the church and they (especially recently) have been condemned by the church for doing so. No man made institution is perfect, and even men of faith will fall. As for the editorial about women priests, some religions allow those. Those, mine does not. Then again women can be nuns and men are excluded from that holy order.

Still, none of this off topic banter
(or perhaps parallel topic) has anything do to with the institutionalized and accepted practices that I have shown here where it is apparently perfectly legal to kidnap, rape and forcibly convert people to Islam!?!
 

daedong

New member

Still, none of this off topic banter
(or perhaps parallel topic) has anything do to with the institutionalized and accepted practices that I have shown here where it is apparently perfectly legal to kidnap, rape and forcibly convert people to Islam!?!

I guess you're right, you intended this thread as an Islam bash.
 

Melensdad

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Not so much a bashing but at least setting the record straight.

I've openly admitted that the Christians and other churches have abusers and other ne're-do'ells among their ranks. That doesn't mean that the religious dogma approves of their actions. In fact every organized one I am aware of opposes formally that type of action.

This thread illustrates how the self proclaimed religion of peace is actually a religion that has institutionalized and accepted many forms of violence. I understand your need to bash my religion, being that you have none, and therefore are defending the religion that I am exposing by casting stones against Christianity. Feel free to start a thread on that topic if you so choose. In this thread I choose to continue to expose some of the truths about Islam and its violent culture and its institutionalized violence.

Oh look, the religion of peace wants to kill the United Nations peacekeepers :smileywac

Bin Laden Calls for Jihad Against Darfur Peacekeepers

CAIRO, Egypt — Al Qaeda leader Usama Bin Laden called for a holy war against a proposed peacekeeping force in Sudan's war torn region of Darfur in a message that appeared on jihadi Web sites on Tuesday.
The audio recording was accompanied by a still picture and excerpts were aired by pan-Arab satellite news channel al-Jazeera on Monday. Bin Laden called on those living in the areas surrounding Darfur, particularly the Arabian peninsula, to drive out any foreign forces in the region.

"It is the duty of the people of Islam in the Sudan and its environs, especially the Arabian Peninsula, to perform jihad against the Crusader invaders and wage armed rebellion to remove those who let them in," he said, according to a transcript provided by IntelCenter which monitors jihadi Web sites.

Bin Laden's deputy, Egyptian-born Ayman al-Zawhiri, made a similar call for jihad in Darfur in a Sept. 20 video message.​
 

daedong

New member
I understand your need to bash my religion, being that you have none, and therefore are defending the religion that I am exposing by casting stones against Christianity.

Oh look, the religion of peace wants to kill the United Nations peacekeepers :smileywac
Bin Laden Calls for Jihad Against Darfur Peacekeepers

CAIRO, Egypt — Al Qaeda leader Usama Bin Laden called for a holy war against a proposed peacekeeping force in Sudan's war torn region of Darfur in a message that appeared on jihadi Web sites on Tuesday.
The audio recording was accompanied by a still picture and excerpts were aired by pan-Arab satellite news channel al-Jazeera on Monday. Bin Laden called on those living in the areas surrounding Darfur, particularly the Arabian peninsula, to drive out any foreign forces in the region.

"It is the duty of the people of Islam in the Sudan and its environs, especially the Arabian Peninsula, to perform jihad against the Crusader invaders and wage armed rebellion to remove those who let them in," he said, according to a transcript provided by IntelCenter which monitors jihadi Web sites.

Bin Laden's deputy, Egyptian-born Ayman al-Zawhiri, made a similar call for jihad in Darfur in a Sept. 20 video message.​

Bob I have no desire to bash your religion or any other religion, but what I will do is point out miss truths about any religion.

This post "Bin Laden Calls for Jihad Against Darfur Peacekeepers" falls into exactly what you were trying to argue about leaders and doctrine . Bin Laden does not represent all Muslims
 

Melensdad

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Bin Laden does not represent all Muslims
And the Pope does not represent all Christians. The Pope represents a portion of the Christian who are called Catholics.

There is no single leader of the Muslims! In fact there are many sects of Muslims and the two major sects are at war with each other because they are fundamentally different than each other in their beliefs.

But Bin Laden is the spiritual leader of a reasonably large sect of radical Muslims. Just as Bob Jones is the spiritual leader of a reasonably large sect of the Christian evangelicals, or Martin Luther was the spiritual leader of the Lutheran sect of Christians. Each is a true leader of a large following, each has reach well beyond the 4 walls of a simple parish or building of worship. Each is the legitimate leader of a movement that has a true hierarchy of authority under it with subordinates who report to them and who do their bidding.

Now, within each group we can pick apart some folks who may not uphold the standards set by the leader. Those individuals would be members or even clergy, but they may not have the authority to institutionalize power beyond their individual scope; for example a simple priest does not have the ability to change dogma within an established church. The priest can be pious or he can be corrupt but neither is able to change the whole institution.

In the case of Bin Ladin, he has spiritual followers and he is obviously using his religious follows to act in a manner that is violent. In Islam there is acceptable and institutionalized abuse as outlined in several articles above.
 

Dargo

Like a bad penny...
GOLD Site Supporter
Vin would you agree with?:

Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Or would you more subscribe to?:

Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers.

No trick, no trap; just a question. Each are two different interpretations of organized religion. I think even the most religious people have lately done a bit of self exploration into their own religion after seeing how insane some followers of extreme radical Islam can be in the name of their "religion". Seriously, how can literally millions of Muslims be so radical that they honestly feel that they must kill anyone who does not believe exactly what they believe? How powerful of a speaker and how much of a spell can Bin Laden and his ilk have on people? Can they take someone who is of moderate "peaceful" Islam beliefs and convert them into radical murderers?
 

Melensdad

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Staff member
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It appears that among some sects of Muslims the slave trade is still considered to be a legitimate practice and is institutionalized in their belief system, their religious practice, and their governments. Perhaps the story below is why Osama Bin Laden wants a Jihad in the Sudan?
Slavery in Islamist Sudan

By Stephen Brown
FrontPageMagazine.com | Thursday, November 01, 2007

It was the kind of excitement that made children uneasy. Grownups were pointing toward the river. Others were arriving at a run. The bustling atmosphere in the market place of the peaceful African town of Nyamlell in the Dinka tribal area in the southern Sudan was changing. Worried adults could see what a seven-year-old Dinka boy, Francis Bok, who had gone to the market that fateful day with older village children to sell his mother’s eggs and peanuts, could not: “a storm of smoke” rising from a nearby village. Sellers frantically began to gather up their wares and hurry away with the buyers. The adults understood. They recognized the approaching signs of the dreaded scourge that most people believed had disappeared from the pages of African history long ago: a slave raid.

It was 1986 and Bok was about to see his happy world of family and village shattered forever by a centuries-old, barbaric practice that has never died out: the violent capture and enslavement of black Africans by Arabs.

“I saw many people on the ground, shot…I saw people with their heads cut off with swords and shot in the head. People were lying on the ground like they just wanted to relax for a moment. I saw blood pouring like a small stream,” the 28-year-old Bok recounted in a voice that still quivers with emotion.

Unknown to him at that time, Bok was also an innocent victim of the decades-long, savage civil war between Sudan’s Arab Muslim North and the country’s African Christian and animist South. Based in the capital, Khartoum, the North’s Islamist government, which also hosted Osama bin Laden in the 1990s, had promulgated sharia law in 1983 for the whole country in its quest to Arabize and Islamicize the non-Muslim South. Also as part of this goal, the Khartoum government armed Muslim militias and sent them in the 1980s and 1990s to wage jihad against the infidel southerners. However, the spears and hippopotamus shields of the South’s Dinka and Nuer tribes, the war’s main victims, were no match for the Kalashnikov-armed Muslims, who went on to kill two million southern Sudanese, displace another four million and take tens of thousands of slaves in a silent genocide.​
 

daedong

New member
Dargo, this is totally off topic as this thread is just a series of negative articles about Islam, but I guess it won't offend Bob if I answer you.

To quote one of your great leaders.
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Thomas Jefferson.
I can't imagine an American president getting away with such a quote today.

Bob You have too much time on your hands, go get a job at CNN.
 

Dargo

Like a bad penny...
GOLD Site Supporter
Dargo, this is totally off topic as this thread is just a series of negative articles about Islam, but I guess it won't offend Bob if I answer you.

To quote one of your great leaders.
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Thomas Jefferson.
I can't imagine an American president getting away with such a quote today.

Bob You have too much time on your hands, go get a job at CNN.


Now Vin, I thought you'd allow me one variance from "topic" since my namesake is a town only about 350 kilometers or so east of Melborune. C'mon mate!

Islam is not alone, but perhaps the largest, in being an organized religion in modern day that still promotes things from which civilized men recoil. I honestly wonder if part of the goal of Islam is not to bring us back to the dark ages? Anyway, my question also had to do with the concern of the power of "religion" over people and to what extent a civilized society will allow exceptions to commonly accepted laws, customs and traditions in the name of religious freedoms that may give up security. The idea of complete face coverings in driver's licence photo and other identification pictures come to mind. Obviously, I disagree with making exceptions to these rules in the name of religion. And, I suppose you could tie this to Islam (if you want) to keep this on topic.

Personally, I've never hit a woman and can't see ever doing so. Also, twice I've intervened when it's not been any of my business when I've been witness of a man beating a woman. I'm still torn as to whether I should haven gotten involved or not in those cases. One turned out well, the other quite badly.
 

daedong

New member
dargo.jpg

Dargo, They even named a pub after you.
In regard to power of religion over people. US early leaders were spot on the mark, separate religion from state. In my view unfortunately most countries with this early conviction have progressively deviated away from this philosophy.
I also agree that there should be common law for all irrespective of ones religious belief.


Talking of pubs, PBinWA I can remember when women never entered the front bar of a pub.

I also remember when women in the Catholic Church had to cover their heads before entering church.

Cityboy, To coin some phrases, you are half right, And people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

I don't necessarily disagree with bob what I do disagree with is his methodology and righteousness
 
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