Runaway Diesel Engine

Cowboy · Sep 8, 2010

Dargo said:
I'm sorry that I no longer have the links to the Chinese tractor sites (I deleted them when I opted not to buy one), but I am relatively certain that besides draining and flushing all fluids a few times and replacing all the filters when you first get them, there were a dozen or so different seals that the guys 'in the know' highly recommended changing out to higher quality seals. You may have just found one of them.

The guys who take the time to do all these things when they first get a brand new Chinese tractor (I thought the manufacturer did these things, but I suppose it's common knowledge that certain Chinese manufacturers do not) seem to be rather content with their tractors and seem to get great service out of them. They like to say that half of the tractor was manufactured in China and that they did all the finish work when they bought one. You may want to Google and browse some of those sites. Most things they said were "required" just took time; not a lot of money. Good luck to ya!

NP & thanks Dargo , I apreciate the input . Actually I just joined the chinese tractor association yesterday but I,m waiting for approval :w00t2:

http://www.ctoa.net/modules/newbb/

I found that by searching ( runaway diesel ) & did quite a bit of reading on it . I,m hoping to locate any parts I might need there as theres also several dealers Including Tommy that post there quite a bit :clap:

But then again I might not get approved either :shifty:

Thanks again .

fogtender · Sep 8, 2010

Cowboy said:
I thought I better update this again . I got my other tractor going & got most of my mowing done so I,m more able to focus on this tractor .

I had to go back & rethink exactlly what took place when the problem started before the engine rpm,s went way to high on its own . I had allready moved a bunch of rock with the loader & I had noticed the response was getting a bit slow before I started back dragging with the bucket , I put a lot of downward preasure on the loader bucket & obviouslly just blew the damn seal , allthough I,ve done it on other tractors for years without any problem .

I was just guessing it was fuel causing it to run away but have since found out any kind of raise in the crankcase can cause that . I checked the fuel again & its still damn near full so noway it pumped 2 gallons or better in the crankcase & even if it did it woulda had to go through the injectors & would have took a long time for that much .

I also found theres 2 different dipsticks for the gear oil , the one one the main case didn,t appear low at all which is another reason I was thinking it was fuel . but The vent on the rear above the PTO is also a dipstick that comes out after finally looking at the parts manual & its at least a gallon or so to low . So I,m 100% sure it is the seal on the hydraulic pump as its the only way it could get into the crankcase .

I just have to see if I can find a seal kit , but worst case scenerio I can buy a brandnew pump for less then 200 bucks , If need be thats the route I,ll go . Then Drain everything & change all filters & fluid which I probablly should have done when I bought the darn thing , Other then taking the guys word he had allready done it .

So thats where I,m at , looks like I lucked out this time & it wont be near as expensive as I feared . I,ll update again when something changes or I get it fixed , but many thanks to all for the help .

Cool, sounds like you have a good insite on what caused the runaway. If you replace the seal to the Hydraulic pump, you can put a better one in it than what was factory if it is Chinese. Buying a new pump to replace one that works well is a waste of money unless you can't get a seal for it.

Seal should cost about $20.00 bucks tops, more like five or so, but you can get a double lipped one that may serve you a tad better.

If you pull the pump off, you can take it to a hydraulic repair company and maybe they can test it to ensure it is a blown seal, and replace it if you aren't able to do so. Most seals aren't part of the High pressure side in the pumps, they do have a slight oil pressure behind them, but there is a drain to back to the intake side so they don't blow out the seal.

Another issue is that the Relief Pressure on the pump or valve body may be set higher than it is suppose to (was it new or used, don't remember if you posted that). Sometime people jack the pressures up to get the system to work faster, which relsults in system failures like you discribed...

Good luck!

Cowboy · Sep 19, 2010

fogtender said:
Cool, sounds like you have a good insite on what caused the runaway. If you replace the seal to the Hydraulic pump, you can put a better one in it than what was factory if it is Chinese. Buying a new pump to replace one that works well is a waste of money unless you can't get a seal for it.

Seal should cost about $20.00 bucks tops, more like five or so, but you can get a double lipped one that may serve you a tad better.

If you pull the pump off, you can take it to a hydraulic repair company and maybe they can test it to ensure it is a blown seal, and replace it if you aren't able to do so. Most seals aren't part of the High pressure side in the pumps, they do have a slight oil pressure behind them, but there is a drain to back to the intake side so they don't blow out the seal.

Another issue is that the Relief Pressure on the pump or valve body may be set higher than it is suppose to (was it new or used, don't remember if you posted that). Sometime people jack the pressures up to get the system to work faster, which relsults in system failures like you discribed...

Good luck!

Thanks fogtender , It was almost new when I got it less then 40 hours . But now I,m thinking it might have allready had a few issues & the pump might have taken some abuse , Thats why I,m just going to get a new one but I will get the seal kits for the old one & if it looks ok when I take it apart I,ll use it & save the new for a spare . :biggrin:

I,ve also found out that a popular problem for the seal blowing is due to the cheap chinese quick disconnects , according to a few of the dealer mechanics I,ve spoken to . So I will be replacing those with new ones , Mainlly because I allready have several sets :biggrin:

.

I,m also draining & flushing all of the rest of the fluids because most likelly it still has the junk chinese fluids in it . Something I should have done when I bought the damn thing . :hammer:

I still haven,t pulled the pump , but will be as soon as all my parts & new filters show up . I,ve been busy using my other one since I got it back up running & it screwed up on me last night AGAIN so I have both tractors down again & I have 30 more ton of rock coming tommorow as well as several loads of clay to line my pond with . :w00t2:

I,ll update this when I get it going , but I,ll be starting a new thread on my new problem & its really got me puzzled . Thanks again :biggrin:

Cowboy · Sep 27, 2010

I finally pulled the pump & was glad to see that the seal in fact has blown see first 2 pics . My parts will hopefully be here today & hopefully I will be back up & running within the next day or so . I,ll update with the good news I hope . :biggrin:

fogtender · Sep 28, 2010

Cowboy said:
I finally pulled the pump & was glad to see that the seal in fact has blown see first 2 pics . My parts will hopefully be here today & hopefully I will be back up & running within the next day or so . I,ll update with the good news I hope .

For what it is worth, the seal isn't a pressure seal, that is suppose to be drained back into the intake side of the pump, so you may have damage in the pump itself, so pulling it apart may be in order for a closer inspection.

There may be some scoring/cracks on the interal parts that will cause a high pressure leak to the low pressure side as well.

Good luck!

Cowboy · Sep 28, 2010

fogtender said:
For what it is worth, the seal isn't a pressure seal, that is suppose to be drained back into the intake side of the pump, so you may have damage in the pump itself, so pulling it apart may be in order for a closer inspection.

There may be some scoring/cracks on the interal parts that will cause a high pressure leak to the low pressure side as well.

Good luck!

So your saying that seal being screwed up couldn,t cause hydraulic fluid to leak into the crankcase fogtender ? I,m not talking about a small leak either , probablly 3 gallons or so in a matter of a few minutes .

I know the pic dont show it very good but the lip of the seal is pushed out in that one area & looks to me like it must have taken some perty high preasure to cause that .

I appreciate your input because I want to make damn sure I have found & corrected any problem that might have caused this . My parts should be here today . I also took apart the air intake as much as I could & cleaned all of the oil out of it & found some metal shavings in there as well . But as much metal I found in the hydraulic screen that dont surprise me to much , I,m told thats typical coming from the chinese factory :hammer:

I,ll tear the pump apart & look for other damage & report back . Thanks :wink:

muleman · Sep 28, 2010

I would think Foggy has called it right. The high pressure circuit was leaking to the suction side of the pump hence the loss of hydraulic power and the seal blowing out. That seal on the input shaft of the pump is most likely to keep crankcase oil from entering the pump.

Cowboy · Sep 28, 2010

muleman said:
I would think Foggy has called it right. The high pressure circuit was leaking to the suction side of the pump hence the loss of hydraulic power and the seal blowing out. That seal on the input shaft of the pump is most likely to keep crankcase oil from entering the pump.

Thanks Bill , Ill tear into the pump & have a look then . I,ll post some pics afterbit . :biggrin:

Cowboy · Sep 28, 2010

OK I tore the pump apart & all of the aluminum & hard parts look fine , The only thing that I can see that could have caused the problem is where the o ring is missing a piece in pics 2 & 5 which seems to have disintegrated inside of the front cover .

I,m guessing that was enough to cause the outer seal to blow . What could have caused the oring to do that though I still have no clue . Could that caused what you both have mentioned for that much fluid to leak into the crankcase & any ideas of what caused the failure ?

. Thanks

fogtender · Sep 29, 2010

Well either it was abused by smacking stuff with the hydraulic accessories which would give some pretty hard shots to the system and is transmitted all the way to the pump, or the bypass relief valve is set too high and the excess pressure just blew it out... But that would do it!

See how good your are! :clap:

Cowboy · Sep 29, 2010

fogtender said:
Well either it was abused by smacking stuff with the hydraulic accessories which would give some pretty hard shots to the system and is transmitted all the way to the pump, or the bypass relief valve is set too high and the excess pressure just blew it out... But that would do it!

See how good your are!

Thanks again fogtender , Much appreciated :biggrin:

. When you say bypass releif valve are you talking about the one on the loader controls ?

That is the only place I can find that looks to have any type of adjustment on it . I,m also wondering if the guy I bought it from might have messed with that setting . I haven,t pulled the screw cover off yet , but I,m thinking about maybe trying to turn the preasure back down just a bit just to be safe , Then turning it back up as needed when I get it back together after I get all of the air out of the system . I,m assuming turning the adjustment screw counter clockwise would turn down the preasure & turning it clockwise would increase the preasure , does that sound correct ?

I dont have the manual for this Koyker 165 loader but Its much like the koyker 155 loader on my other tractor & I may be able to find the manual for it I,m not sure it would have the proper settings in it . I,ve been told I would need to have a hydraulic preasure guage to set it properlly but I dont know where to get one or how I would even check the settings correctlly .

My parts did not come yesterday so I,m hoping for today , Thanks again :biggrin:

muleman · Sep 29, 2010

You need to find out what the system pressure is supposed to be maxxed out at. The loader is independent of that. You may have to take a line off and put a T with a cap on one port and a gauge on the other. Whatever the spec is I would set the relief at least 100 psi below max to prevent this from happening again. A good hydraulics shop should be able to help you out with a gauge and T.

Cowboy · Sep 29, 2010

muleman said:
You need to find out what the system pressure is supposed to be maxxed out at. The loader is independent of that. You may have to take a line off and put a T with a cap on one port and a gauge on the other. Whatever the spec is I would set the relief at least 100 psi below max to prevent this from happening again. A good hydraulics shop should be able to help you out with a gauge and T.

Thanks Bill , I,ll have to do some more looking , so far I cant find anywhere on the tractor that has any type of valves or settings on the hydraulics , other then the loader itself .

OH CRAP ! Scratch that :hammer:

Duh the sumbitch has got a set of rear remotes I aint even looked at those yet , because I aint got anything I would need them for yet . But I cant imagine the other owner did either , but I better check anyway .

Thats the problem having 2 imported tractors tore down at the same time , I spend most of the time with my head up my butt :w00t2:

muleman · Sep 29, 2010

If you have rear remotes you can plumb a gauge onto one of them.

Cowboy · Sep 29, 2010

muleman said:
If you have rear remotes you can plumb a gauge onto one of them.

Gotcha Bill , I,ll look into that . thanks :biggrin:

Cowboy · Oct 2, 2010

Well I got the gears & shaft switched in the new pump so it would turn the right direction . Got it installed , everything back to gether & refilled . I ran it for short intervals to recheck levels or leaks & listen for unusual engine noises , Its been down so long now I dont even remember WTF normal is :hammer:

All appears good so far but haven,t really pushed it much . I had one new disconnect leaking at a fitting that is a sumbitch to get to , While trying to tighten it with my 2 biggest wrenches 1 wrench slipped off & I took half my fuckin right thumb off plum to the bone

.

After cleaning it with whiskey , flushing with peroxide & covering it with antibacterial ointment , A few butterfly bandages ta hold it back together & liquid skin ta seal it back up , its damn near back to new again this morning , allthough twice as big as ussual

. Biggest thing is I got the mess cleaned up before my wife got home except for my new rubber mats

Worst thing is the damn fittings still leaking & I aint going to feel like trying to tighten it anymore for a few days , so I recon my test run & mowing will have to wait a few days :hammer:

I,ll update when I know more . :wink:

muleman · Oct 2, 2010

Ouch on that! I had to get my neighbor down to help me get the one extendahoe hose off my backhoe. Case makes them suckers way tight at the factory. We ended up with pipes on each wrench to break them loose.

Cowboy · Oct 2, 2010

muleman said:
Ouch on that! I had to get my neighbor down to help me get the one extendahoe hose off my backhoe. Case makes them suckers way tight at the factory. We ended up with pipes on each wrench to break them loose.

Yep , I was surprised I was able to get all 3 QD,s loose without any help But I,m used to having to do things by myself . Just pisses me off its even leaking , I used thread sealer & teflon tape & thought I had it plenty tight , Its just in an awkward location that I have to try to tight it from underneath so I,m not able to use any kind of cheater bars . :hammer:

My farmer neighbor would give me a hand but he,s been busy trying to get the rest of his soybeans in so I hate bothering him . I might see if he,s around tommorow , I sure need to get some mowing done if it is fixed

muleman · Oct 2, 2010

Don't forget to check the system relief pressure or it might take out the new pump.

Cowboy · Oct 2, 2010

muleman said:
Don't forget to check the system relief pressure or it might take out the new pump.

Yep , I have no real clue how to do that or what guage I would need & I am having no luck finding anyone that knows to come out & check it for me . The tractor shops I,ve talked to said I would have to bring it to them & that aint going to happen . Any Ideas ? because I,m perty much at a loss right now, thanks

pixie · Oct 2, 2010

Glad things are looking up ! Hope you heal up fast.

You can get a pressure guage at Surplus center or maybe even an auto parts store. SurplusC was $12.
Plumb it in to the output line (Ts) and read it when that line is in use. Relief should occur at the end of cylinder travel ??

I recently put 2 in my Muskeg but can't see one of them when the circuit's in use ...silly me.

Cowboy · Oct 2, 2010

pixie said:
Glad things are looking up ! Hope you heal up fast.

You can get a pressure guage at Surplus center or maybe even an auto parts store. SurplusC was $12.
Plumb it in to the output line (Ts) and read it when that line is in use. Relief should occur at the end of cylinder travel ??

I recently put 2 in my Muskeg but can't see one of them when the circuit's in use ...silly me.

Thanks pixie Much apreciated , that sounds simple enough I,ll look into it :wink:

Snowtrac Nome · Oct 2, 2010

Cowboy said:
Thanks pixie Much apreciated , that sounds simple enough I,ll look into it

you need a gauge that will read about 3000 psi and plumb in a few t conections with a jic port where you will hook up the gauge and cap it when in use than have a hose guy make you a 3 foot whip with a female jic on it so you can uncap and tap in to different places to test for pressure a cool way to do this is with qd fittings but they are kind of expensive.

Cowboy · Oct 2, 2010

dds said:
you need a gauge that will read about 3000 psi and plumb in a few t conections with a jic port where you will hook up the gauge and cap it when in use than have a hose guy make you a 3 foot whip with a female jic on it so you can uncap and tap in to different places to test for pressure a cool way to do this is with qd fittings but they are kind of expensive.

Good to know Don , I have rear duel remotes could I not just plug into one of those quick disconnects ? Or would I have to tap into the loader hydraulics , Thats where there seems to be a valve that could be adjusted , I just want to make sure the previous owner didn,t set it to high .

Its got about 140 hours on it & I put 100 of them on it & this was my first problem . Thanks :wink:

Snowtrac Nome · Oct 2, 2010

i'm not familiar with your loader most pumps will have an internal relief valve with a pistion and spring in it and i would expect your pressure to run about 1800 to 2500 psi but you don't want to exceed what the pump is intended to do or you could split the housing wide open. if you hook up to your supply hose it should work for you and to check relief pressure will drop a but when the cylinder moves and will spike a bit as the cylinder stops and settle back at the regulated pressure. the reason for taps through the system is later on if you have a problem it will simplify trouble shooting

muleman · Oct 2, 2010

You should be able to just buy a male end that fits your rear remotes. Are they American standard? Does your neighbor have an old hose from a plow or disc that you could try in it? Then all you would need would be a gage and whatever fitting to make it fit the hose.

HarryG · Oct 2, 2010

Cowboy,
Thats a Yangdong engine on a China unit right? I have the same engine and a Koyker FEL too. I'm betting the hydro pump front seal blew and is pumping hydro fluid into the crankcase and the overfilled oil is getting sucked/pushed into the cylinders. This has happened on a several units.
Check the oil sump for the hydro and rear diff and if its low thats your culprit.

Oops I replied after reading page one and didn't realise you had found the problem.

Cowboy · Oct 2, 2010

dds said:
i'm not familiar with your loader most pumps will have an internal relief valve with a pistion and spring in it and i would expect your pressure to run about 1800 to 2500 psi but you don't want to exceed what the pump is intended to do or you could split the housing wide open. if you hook up to your supply hose it should work for you and to check relief pressure will drop a but when the cylinder moves and will spike a bit as the cylinder stops and settle back at the regulated pressure. the reason for taps through the system is later on if you have a problem it will simplify trouble shooting

Yep I gotcha Don , I dont think the preasure has been changed but I just want to make sure . :smile:

muleman said:
You should be able to just buy a male end that fits your rear remotes. Are they American standard? Does your neighbor have an old hose from a plow or disc that you could try in it? Then all you would need would be a gage and whatever fitting to make it fit the hose.

Thats what I was hopin Bill , Yes its american standard & I have a hose with a male disconnect allready & I have all kinds of fittins so I should just need to plum a guage to it sounds like . I,ll round up what I do have & report back . :biggrin:

HarryG said:
Cowboy,
Thats a Yangdong engine on a China unit right? I have the same engine and a Koyker FEL too. I'm betting the hydro pump front seal blew and is pumping hydro fluid into the crankcase and the overfilled oil is getting sucked/pushed into the cylinders. This has happened on a several units.
Check the oil sump for the hydro and rear diff and if its low thats your culprit.

Yep Harry sounds like the same setup basicly , You are correct the front seal was blown & the cuprit as I posted early on in the thread , I replaced it with a pump that is a bit bigger that this loader actually calls for the way I understand it . I just want to make sure the preasure valve hasn,t been cranked up . Good to know someone here at least has the same motor :clap:

. Thanks to all of you once again . First thing I gota do is fix that leak in the fitting to the QD which is a day away till this damn thumb heals up a bit . Then I,ll make sure I have everything straight on how to check & what the preasure should read . :thankyou2

fogtender · Oct 4, 2010

Take and post a photo of the valve control body, there should/may be a relieve valve there for the pressure control if not one built into the pump itself.

Will have a cap over it, and under it will have a allen head looking bolt with a nut on it to lock it down. If you loosened the lock nut and backed off the allen screw that would lower your working pressure until you can find out what it is set at, for cheap insurance.

Cowboy · Oct 4, 2010

fogtender said:
Take and post a photo of the valve control body, there should/may be a relieve valve there for the pressure control if not one built into the pump itself.

Will have a cap over it, and under it will have a allen head looking bolt with a nut on it to lock it down. If you loosened the lock nut and backed off the allen screw that would lower your working pressure until you can find out what it is set at, for cheap insurance.

Thanks again fogtender . Heres a few pics of what I,m guessing are the adjustments on the loader as well as for the remotes . Theres not one on the pump itself that I could see . If you need better pics I can get them :biggrin:

I like the sound of backing it off as I haven,t got a preasure guage yet .

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