Abandoning the Constitution

bczoom · Jan 20, 2010

A good read.
From http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/silveira121.html

Abandoning the Constitution!
Who’s to blame for our loss of rights?

By John Silveira

I walked into the offices of Backwoods Home Magazine the other day and heard a familiar voice exclaim, "Today, we can go to jail or prison for simply exercising the rights we used to assume were given to us by God. Our founders called them our Natural Rights. They were enumerated in the Constitution. Since childhood we have been taught that our soldiers died on foreign soil to protect these rights. But nowadays exercising them can land you in the clink."

It was the voice of O.E. MacDougal, the poker-playing friend of Dave Duffy, the publisher of BHM. I followed the sound into Dave's office and there they were, Mac and Dave. There was also an open bottle of GatoNegro merlot wine on the corner of Dave's desk along with an empty wine glass. Dave and Mac were already imbibing.

"Hey," Dave said when he saw me, "pull up a seat and join us. We were hoping you'd show up."

(more at the link)

muleman · Jan 20, 2010

A most excellent read. It surely show the apathy exhibited by most and the abuses by those who govern. The property rights one is a personal thorn to me. The idea of taking folks property to increase a tax base for the local government so developers can build something there is so wrong. Yet our liberal courts gave them the power to do it.

joec · Jan 20, 2010

I can answer that question of "Who’s to blame for our loss of rights?", for you. It would be us, the people, who out of fear give up rights for security. Not really a hard question though but it was a interesting read.

Melensdad · Jan 20, 2010

joec said:
It would be us, the people, who out of fear give up rights for security.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

joec · Jan 21, 2010

B_Skurka said:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

I agree with this but then I'm not one who tends to suffer from mass hysteria. Think about the rights given up because a handful of terrorists crashed some planes. Think Patriot Act and look at what that took away in the way of personal rights. I sure don't agree with giving up rights but most things listed should be put into a time frame. It might clear up where these infringements came from. I'm also not pointing a finger at any group just suggest you look is all.

VeraBlue · Jan 21, 2010

Let's see......: The right to carry a cannon into a crowded bar where people are drinking to excess; and the carelessness that leads to it discharging and someone getting shot.....vs. my right to enter an establishment(not a shooting gallery, not a battle field, not the wild west ) under the assumption that my safety is paramount?

Is this supposed to be a trick question??

The right to bear arms was a necessary part of the constitution before there was a permanent militia or police force. It's there now, for good or bad...and I don't see how it will ever be removed.
However, one of my rights is that it is reasonable for me to assume I can enter restaurants, theatres, shopping malls, grocery stores, or any place that is not afghanistan, without fear of some nut accidentally discharging his weapon into my head.

You need that gun?? Keep it at home where there is not a police force or security person. But outside your house...leave it to the professionals.

No, I didn't read all the satire....the spin on it was making my head hurt.

Melensdad · Jan 21, 2010

VeraBlue said:
Let's see......: The right to carry a cannon into a crowded bar where people are drinking to excess; and the carelessness that leads to it discharging and someone getting shot.....vs. my right to enter an establishment(not a shooting gallery, not a battle field, not the wild west ) under the assumption that my safety is paramount?

Just curious but how often do legal CCW holders do this?

I live in a state with some of the most liberal CCW laws. In fact its been legal here in Indiana for over 70 years to carry a gun into a bar. I can't recall EVER hearing about an instance where a legal CCW holder has ever shot up a bar after drinking to excess, acting careless, etc as you describe. If it would happen anywhere it would happen in this state, as I said, its been legal here for a very long time.

I suspect you are simply parroting the anti-gun propaganda and are simply ignorant of actual facts.

waybomb · Jan 21, 2010

Outlaw guns. Turn opn a big magnet, and suck em all up and melt them into a statue. Then do the same with knives. And nunchucks. And swords. And bows and arrows.

Killing ends, correct?

The criminal kills, not the weapon. If one of these deranged fecks wants you dead, you are dead. Whether by bullet or coca-cola bottle. You are dead.

joec · Jan 21, 2010

Gun rights according to Kentucky are as follows:

http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/a/gunlaws_ly.htm

jimbo · Jan 21, 2010

"However, one of my rights is that it is reasonable for me to assume I can enter restaurants, theatres, shopping malls, grocery stores, or any place that is not afghanistan, without fear of some nut accidentally discharging his weapon into my head".

Vera, I really think that you should feel safe if:

The good guys are the ones with the "cannons"

The bad guys don't know which ones are the good guys.

pirate_girl · Jan 21, 2010

VeraBlue said:
You need that gun?? Keep it at home where there is not a police force or security person. But outside your house...leave it to the professionals.

jpr62902 · Jan 21, 2010

VeraBlue said:
Let's see......: The right to carry a cannon into a crowded bar where people are drinking to excess; and the carelessness that leads to it discharging and someone getting shot.....vs. my right to enter an establishment(not a shooting gallery, not a battle field, not the wild west ) under the assumption that my safety is paramount?

Is this supposed to be a trick question??

The right to bear arms was a necessary part of the constitution before there was a permanent militia or police force. It's there now, for good or bad...and I don't see how it will ever be removed.
However, one of my rights is that it is reasonable for me to assume I can enter restaurants, theatres, shopping malls, grocery stores, or any place that is not afghanistan, without fear of some nut accidentally discharging his weapon into my head.

You need that gun?? Keep it at home where there is not a police force or security person. But outside your house...leave it to the professionals.

No, I didn't read all the satire....the spin on it was making my head hurt.

To be fair, the story in the OP leaves out some of the most important language of the 2nd Amendment, which reads, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

That said, the 2nd Amendment doesn't bestow carte blanche rights of gun ownership. The Plaxico Burress example is just a bad one to reference. Why cite the punishment levied on a numbskull mishandling an illicit firearm at the peril of himself, and others, in support of the notion that our Constitutional rights are withering? Couple that with a half quote of the 2nd Amendment, and some folks get feathers ruffled.

But again, Plaxico is an exception, not the norm, isn't he? How many examples have you read or heard about where a person with a concealed carry license "blasted away" at folks indiscriminately, negligently or maliciously with his or her properly licensed and concealed weapon?

JEV · Jan 21, 2010

jpr62902 said:
But again, Plaxico is an exception, not the norm, isn't he? How many examples have you read or heard about where a person with a concealed carry license "blasted away" at folks indiscriminately, negligently or maliciously with his or her properly licensed and concealed weapon?

I would challenge anyone to find any instance of a concealed carry permit holder ever having perpetrated a crime with their weapon (this is a good exercise for liberals). In Ohio the myth of mayhem and lawlessness over legal carry has been dispelled to the point that you rarely see any of those signs which say no weapons allowed in business establishments. Only the uneducated believe the bullshit being given them by the anti-gun lobby. Try to imagine a scenario in which Americans were not allowed to own guns...now you are talking lawlessness and mayhem, because the criminals will ALWAYS have access to guns. It's a lose-lose scenario.

joec · Jan 21, 2010

I actually spoke to two of our police officers today when they came it to pay their storage bill. We got to talking about legal open carry as well as concealed carry. Both told me when the laws here where changed they where scared to death for their lives. Since then both had changed their minds completely as they haven't had a single case of someone carrying a gun in the open discharging it illegally nor have run in to any with a concealed carry that didn't tell them up front and produce their license. Both said they have completely changed their opinion on the subject with both being uniformed street cops.

I heard this from police when I was in Pompano Beach and West Palm Beach Florida before moving to Lexington. Law abiding citizens are not the one likely to use a gun improperly.

pirate_girl · Jan 21, 2010

I used to be scared to death of guns.
When my son Jeff decided to go into law enforcement, I was even more frightened.
Now, as being one who is proud to own and carry, I don't see how anyone could say anything against those who know the law and do it responsibly.
It's not those who know the law who commit the most crimes, it's those who have possession of a gun (whether legally or illegally) and have no regard for the honour and privilege/RIGHT of doing so.

Melensdad · Jan 22, 2010

I happened to be digging around for some information today. Within my ZIP CODE there are approximately 10,500 residents (men, women and children) and of those 10,500 residents, there are just over 1000 carry licenses issued to residents. Many of whom are women, most of whom are adults between the ages of 41 and 55.

Now it might seem like an awful lot of carry permits to have issued to that 10,500 residents, however my ZIP CODE is actually BELOW AVERAGE for the state! Yup, we are slackers with 9.6% of the population not just armed, but armed in public. The state average is over 11%.

Wild West shootouts in the streets?

Barroom brawls ending in gunfire?

NOPE, just responsible citizens keeping themselves safe during their day to day trips to the grocery store, while dropping their kids off on school property, visiting the hospital to see their elderly grandparents, or any other daily activities.

Funny how the ANTI crowd makes all sorts of claims that it can't back up with any factual information. And much of the "fact" that comes from the Brady Campaign has been debunked so many times its an embarrassment for anyone to repeat those lies.

joec · Jan 22, 2010

I've always though that most street criminals as lazy by their very nature. They always go for what they think is the weakest target in most cases. If they have any idea someone might be able to defend themselves for what ever reason be it physically or with a weapon they will pass you by and keep hunting..

Glink · Jan 23, 2010

VeraBlue said:
However, one of my rights is that it is reasonable for me to assume I can enter restaurants, theatres, shopping malls, grocery stores, or any place that is not afghanistan, without fear of some nut accidentally discharging his weapon into my head.

Where would this right be listed? You are saying you have the right feel safe? Your feelings are your responsbility; and totally under your control. You have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; as well as the other enumerated rights, to augment these basic ones. You also have the right of self defense. Now that should make you feel safe.

VeraBlue said:
No, I didn't read all the satire....the spin on it was making my head hurt.

Wrong force of nature it was not spin; it is the vacuum generated from the lack of fact based logic that exists there on this issue.

Glink · Jan 23, 2010

Wild West shootouts in the streets?

Barroom brawls ending in gunfire?

NOPE, just responsible citizens keeping themselves safe during their day to day trips to the grocery store, while dropping their kids off on school property, visiting the hospital to see their elderly grandparents, or any other daily activities.

Correct not here in the Hoosier state. The criminals drive over to Illinois, where they have much less chance of their intended victim blowing their head open. If these anti-gun fools want to feel safe they should relocate to such bastions of safety as NYC, Chicago, LA or preferebly Mexico City. All homes of very strict gun law or outright bans.

Facts......far left loons hate 'em.

Melensdad · Jan 23, 2010

Glink said:
... Your feelings are your responsbility; and totally under your control. You have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; as well as the other enumerated rights, to augment these basic ones. You also have the right of self defense. ...

Stop trying to apply logic to someone who lets ignorance of fact and emotion rule their life.

Simply put, there are millions and millions of safe gun owners who have never discharged a gun into anyone's head! And there is ample evidence to show that our mere presence reduces crime. Went to a crowded restaurant today after a fencing match and I simply have to presume that there were 5 to 10 guns present based on the averages in this state. Didn't bother me a bit, in fact I didn't give it a second thought. Nobody shot a waiter who gave bad service, no barroom shootouts in the attached bar, no gunplay in the parking lot fighting over parking spaces either.

Yup, we have the right to self defense. The feelings we have about other things are our own. But it is interesting to note that some people are so fearful of objects they do not have any reasonable knowledge about that they imbue those objects with some mystical powers, or they transfer their bad beliefs onto all the people who might own the object. Hey, just because someone can't trust them self with a gun does not mean that I am not worthy of trust!

VeraBlue · Jan 26, 2010

B_Skurka said:
Stop trying to apply logic to someone who lets ignorance of fact and emotion rule their life.

You don't know a damn thing about me. That comment is condescending as much as it is incorrect. How dare you?

SShepherd · Jan 26, 2010

VeraBlue said:
Let's see......: The right to carry a cannon into a crowded bar where people are drinking to excess; and the carelessness that leads to it discharging and someone getting shot.....vs. my right to enter an establishment(not a shooting gallery, not a battle field, not the wild west ) under the assumption that my safety is paramount?

Is this supposed to be a trick question??

The right to bear arms was a necessary part of the constitution before there was a permanent militia or police force. It's there now, for good or bad...and I don't see how it will ever be removed.
However, one of my rights is that it is reasonable for me to assume I can enter restaurants, theatres, shopping malls, grocery stores, or any place that is not afghanistan, without fear of some nut accidentally discharging his weapon into my head.

You need that gun?? Keep it at home where there is not a police force or security person. But outside your house...leave it to the professionals.

No, I didn't read all the satire....the spin on it was making my head hurt.

sorry, but this post is chock full of false assumptions and untruths :hammer:

Glink · Jan 26, 2010

VeraBlue said:
You don't know a damn thing about me. That comment is condescending as much as it is incorrect. How dare you?

VeraBlue said:
However, one of my rights is that it is reasonable for me to assume ?

Enough said.

Melensdad · Jan 27, 2010

VeraBlue said:
You don't know a damn thing about me. That comment is condescending as much as it is incorrect. How dare you?

How dare I? Simple, you posted a whole lot of falsehoods and implications about others and I simply returned the favor. I gather you didn't like it? But it was OK for you to do it to others because you never gave any evidence that was requested to back up your allegations. Seems to me that if you can cast aspersions and not back them up, then others can make similar assumptions about you.

Now, I will gladly retract my comment when you provide viable unbiased evidence to back up your statements. I ask a simple question again, how often (as a % of the population) do legal concealed carry permit holders shoot up bars, churches, supermarkets, etc and endanger the lives of others? Or asked differently, if you measure the violent crimes committed by legal ccw holders, is it lower than or greater than the percentage of crimes committed by the general public? Or asked slightly differently again, are legal ccw holders more likely to commit a violent crime than a member of the general public or less likely to commit a violent crime than a member of the general public.

VeraBlue · Jan 27, 2010

Nah, I'm done here. I posted my beliefs about my thoughts regarding the guns in nightclub issues. My beliefs cannot be wrong. They may be different than yours, but they cannot be wrong. I made no aspersions regarding your intellect nor how you base your life. I was not given the same courtesy.
My last parting thought, however, is this. It is indeed my right as a citizen to assume I am safe when I enter any establishment. That falls under the right to life and the pursuit of happiness. Unless there is a sign posted at the door 'enter at your own risk upon peril of death' then it is a business owner's responsibility to guarantee my safety.

The reason I rarely post on this forum is precisely the reason I stayed away so long. I am disturbed by the atmosphere here. Clearly you don't want people who have a different point of view or live a different lifestyle. I like Obama, I support gay marriage, I'm all for health reform, I don't support the wars we are currently engaged in, I support the adult sex industry and I think marijuana should be leagalized for all.

Have a nice life, all of you. Watch out for that finger pointing though, and especially the name calling....shit like that tends to come back around at you when you least expect it.

SShepherd · Jan 27, 2010

well, you did equate people who carry a gun-legally and within their rights-( and many of these same people have never had so much as a parking ticket) as "nuts"

I guess maybe that finger got pointed back at you

...............just sayin :whistling:

SShepherd · Jan 27, 2010

"My beliefs cannot be wrong. They may be different than yours, but they cannot be wrong"
you stated;
"The right to carry a cannon into a crowded bar where people are drinking to excess; and the carelessness that leads to it discharging and someone getting shot."

cannon..a little over the top, but whatever. Carrying a firearm, most states have a 0 tolerance on consumptoin al alc. while carrying. Do you have any proof or a statistic to ,"crowded bar where people are drinking to excess carelessness that leads to it discharging and someone getting shot."? I suspect you do not, and that makes your arguement false. You can believe it or not, but it is an incorrect assumption

you also said;
"You need that gun?? Keep it at home where there is not a police force or security person. But outside your house...leave it to the professionals. "

first of all, the police have no legal obligation to "protect" you-- their job is to enforce the law, 99% of the time after a crime happens (if I'm not mistaken there's been a ruling in court that supports that statement)
Second, I garuntee there are more non LEO that are equally or more profecient in the use of firearms and the laws surrounding their use. Just because a cop carries a gun does not make them any more proficient in their use, hell there's been quite a few instances where cops have shot themselves and (and others) without having to eal with the same consequences.

mak2 · Jan 27, 2010

VeraBlue said:
Nah, I'm done here. I posted my beliefs about my thoughts regarding the guns in nightclub issues. My beliefs cannot be wrong. They may be different than yours, but they cannot be wrong. I made no aspersions regarding your intellect nor how you base your life. I was not given the same courtesy.
My last parting thought, however, is this. It is indeed my right as a citizen to assume I am safe when I enter any establishment. That falls under the right to life and the pursuit of happiness. Unless there is a sign posted at the door 'enter at your own risk upon peril of death' then it is a business owner's responsibility to guarantee my safety.

The reason I rarely post on this forum is precisely the reason I stayed away so long. I am disturbed by the atmosphere here. Clearly you don't want people who have a different point of view or live a different lifestyle. I like Obama, I support gay marriage, I'm all for health reform, I don't support the wars we are currently engaged in, I support the adult sex industry and I think marijuana should be leagalized for all.

Have a nice life, all of you. Watch out for that finger pointing though, and especially the name calling....shit like that tends to come back around at you when you least expect it.

dont leave, you might be more librul than I am. I need you. Most (not all) of the right wingers on this forum do not tolerate any sort of dissenting opinon.
They state the few things they pick up on the radio that day and if that dont convert ya' you must be one of them left wing loon nut cases. Then the personal attacks begin. It was worse a while back but is getting bad again.

VeraBlue is entitled to his/her own opinions, really. Even if wrong, and so am I and I for one understand your right to be wrong too. It does make me mad or attack you personally, maybe because I am not as insecure in my beliefs and opinions. Evidence to the contray can be presented in a civilized way. Personal attacks should not be tolerated if you want the fourm to remain civil. I have pointed out B_Skurka's rudness before, and true to form he changes it from rudness to another word.

I thought this thread would be a good one to get this off my chest becasue this is one of those points I am far right on. Every one should be armed all the time as far as I am concerned. Having said that I rarely carry into a bar or a church, just a personal thing.

and one more thing, How did/does VeraBlue support the adult sex industry?

bczoom · Jan 27, 2010

mak2 said:
Most (not all) of the right wingers on this forum do not tolerate any sort of dissenting opinon.

We tolerate your opinion. You'll just get called on the separation of opinion vs fact.

mak2 said:
They state the few things they pick up on the radio that day and if that dont convert ya' you must be one of them left wing loon nut cases. Then the personal attacks begin. It was worse a while back but is getting bad again.

At ANY TIME, if you see a personal attack, you hit the "report post" icon on the top right side of the post in question. It's the triangle with the ! in the middle. All moderators will be notified and they'll discuss any appropriate action. No moderator acts alone. At LEAST 2 mods must agree to take action on a reported post, spam not included. Personal attacks are not tolerated here. Beat the subject all to hell but don't be attacking the member in the course of doing so. Members ARE allowed to question the content of the post but not in an inappropriate fashion.

mak2 · Jan 27, 2010

B_Skurka said:
I suspect you are simply parroting the anti-gun propaganda and are simply ignorant of actual facts.

Calling verablue an ignorant parrot is not a form of debate. It is the RW bullies on this forum forcing their opinion on others.

I for one have posted study after study about healthcare and cost and benefits and on and on. All you guys have to do is start chanting death panels or rationing or something silly without any sort of "call" on seperation of rhetoric and fact. Two completely different standards.

If you dont notice the personal attack on verablue I aint reporting it. I kinda like fighting with the WN's on here. but others dont. kinda sad really.

One more thing, B_skurka said "you" that is what made it personal. Again, jsut my 2 cents.

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