1972 Aktiv ST4 "Snow Trac"

Not much new to report, or at least not much that I can show. The far right side of the dash has been marked and drilled out for the new battery switch that will let me choose battery 1, battery 2, both or neither. A Snow Trac comes with 1 battery but for a vehicle like this it just makes sense to me to have a dual battery set up for safety.

I have been using a Blue Top Optima as my primary battery, it is a deep cycle Optima coil battery. My new battery is a Red Top Optima, it doesn't have quite the same characteristics but is supposed to have greater cold tolerance, and more CCA power than the Blue Top. So I figure the 2 batteries make a good combination?

Below is a photo of the hole in the dash where the switch will be mounted, and a photo of the type of switch that will be installed.

The final photo is a file photo that shows were the 3 light switches (link to Page 6 of this thread with switch discussion/photo) for the new lights were added on the left side of the dash and shows the location of the new battery switch on the far right side of the dash. BTW, the batteries are located under the seat area on the far right side of the cabin, so they are basically located a very short distance UNDER the location of the battery switch. This was done to keep the cable lengths to the batteries as short as possible. The battery switch location is also out of the way of everything.

B_Skurka said:

BTW, the batteries are located under the seat area on the far right side of the cabin

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Hey Bob,
Not to take this off subject but Mrs. Zoom's car (Audi A6) has the battery under the rear seat of the car.

In her care it's essential that the battery be vented. A good battery store wouldn't even sell me a battery unless it had a vent. Ask someone else the details but I can "guess" as to why.

You may want to consider the same.

I believe that the Optimas that Bob is using are gel cell batteries. These gel cells would work great in the interior of a vehicle as they would not spew acid about if, God forbid, you had a rollover. At the same time, they do not gas under use like a wet cell battery would.

Also, going back to my off-road Jeep, Bob I was under the impression that you would want two batteries of the same type when pairing (using the #2 spot on your selector). This way the two batteries will have about the same life. Otherwise, one battery is working harder than the other and will be drawn down.

I think that you are on target wanting a spare voltage supply, especially when in the back country relying on self-sufficiency to get to safety. As I rebuild my SkiDozer, I am planning on going this route also with dual batteries. I am going to install a winch on the rear deck to pull logs up onto it. At the same time, this winch would be useful for self recovery if needed. With the winch, you would want a large supple of voltage.

SkiDozer 302 said:

I was under the impression that you would want two batteries of the same type when pairing (using the #2 spot on your selector). This way the two batteries will have about the same life. Otherwise, one battery is working harder than the other and will be drawn down.

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Yes, the Optimas are fully sealed gel cell coil type batteries.

Ideally I would want two of the same, but the first Optima I got was the Blue Top and the reason I got it was because I picked it up for 1/2 price with a full guarantee. It was too good of a deal to pass up.

When I went to buy battery #2, I bought the Red Top because that is the better battery for starting in a cold climate. Red Top offers 800 CCA at 0F. The Blue Top offers 800 CCA at 0F but can't maintain it for as long as the Red Top. What it can do is hold a charge for a year without use, be drawn down farther more often, and recharge quicker. The Red Top is the better battery for starting in extreme conditions. Both are supposedly better than a high performance lead acid battery. I figure the switch option to choose "both" batteries is almost like having a built in jump starter and certainly gives me a nice safety margin should I need it (which I hope I never do!).

I am with you on not being able to pass up a good deal, and it sounds like you hit the mark there. I think the two batteries are compatible as I believe the problem would be having different CCA’s.

I am going to use a dual battery set up but use an oil pressure switch. To charge both batteries while running, the oil switch will pull the solenoid in. When the engine is shut down, the batteries will separate and leave a fully charged unit in reserve. I will use a momentary switch to override and pull the solenoid in to send voltage to the “starter” battery.

SkiDozer 302 said:

I am going to use a dual battery set up but use an oil pressure switch. To charge both batteries while running, the oil switch will pull the solenoid in. When the engine is shut down, the batteries will separate and leave a fully charged unit in reserve. I will use a momentary switch to override and pull the solenoid in to send voltage to the “starter” battery.

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What you wrote is simply beyond the basics of wiring that I understand What I chose to do is very common on boats, its simple, inexpensive, virutally idiot proof (something I need), and allows use of one or both batteries, and when not drawing a lot of electrical load it allows me to recharge either or both batteries.

bczoom said:

Hey Bob,
Not to take this off subject but Mrs. Zoom's car (Audi A6) has the battery under the rear seat of the car.

In her care it's essential that the battery be vented. A good battery store wouldn't even sell me a battery unless it had a vent. Ask someone else the details but I can "guess" as to why.

Click to expand...

As previously written these batteries are simply different. If you are not familiar with Optima batteries take a look at the graphics below. These really are a revolutionary advancement in batteries.

My bad Bob. I forgot you were using Optima's.

SkiDozer 302 said:

I am going to use a dual battery set up but use an oil pressure switch. To charge both batteries while running, the oil switch will pull the solenoid in. When the engine is shut down, the batteries will separate and leave a fully charged unit in reserve. I will use a momentary switch to override and pull the solenoid in to send voltage to the “starter” battery.

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Ding, Ding, Ding... we have a winna!

I agree with this... Bob, I know you're commited to your plan (I saw the holes in your dash), but this wouldn't be that hard to do.

Eric

I honestly don't see that my switch is really all that different. The switch allows for dual charging, dual discharging, independant charge, independant discharge, etc. The fact that I've got an alternator with an output that is greater than my maximum electrical draw should keep me in a situation where I always have charged batteries (at least if the alternator is working) and the only real time I'd have less than full charge is during the starting sequence before the alternator kicks in and while the batteries are actually turning the starter motor to fire up the engine.

SkiDozer may have designed an automatic system where my system is a manual one, but the net effect is that both essentially do the same thing. Granted his does it with a bit more flair, and might be fancier & automatic, but mine is simple and I can actually understand how/why mine works. I don't understand the solenoid thingy. If I understand it, the solenoid thing may automatically figure out that one battery is not quite topped up?

I'm not looking for a complicated machine when I am out cruising the woods and fields, I'm looking for something I actually can figure out. It is important to me that I can actually figure out what I have and make it work.

Today's Update: Not Much Done . . .

The battery wires are all removed and new, longer wires are going in, but probably not until tomorrow. Work (my real job) is getting in the way of completing the wiring, and I had to go out to the auto parts store to pick up a new tractor battery for the small tractor I keep at my office to snowblow the freight docks. Consequently not much work got done on the Snow Trac. Removing the battery wires required removal of the sheet metal pan under the engine, that is now removed and when it comes time to run the wires it will be a fairly quick task to do so. The goal, which should be attained easily, is to button up all these little tasks before the weekend.

One additonal thing that got done is a hole was drilled into the dashboard for a 12-volt power outlet. That will power a portable Magellan "Meridian Color" GPS unit. At some point I will probably upgrade that to a GPS with a larger screen and switch it between the Jeepster and the Snow Trac, but for now, the Magellin unit will work very well for my modest needs.

I have a mounting base for the GPS unit, I think it will fit nicely on top of the dash between the two front windows

Bob, I am just using a different color lipstick on the same pig. We are both accomplishing the same goal. My unit will be driven by different people so this is the easier way for me, set it and forget it kind of thing. Attached to the second battery will be the winch, some outside lights, and a cigarette lighter. My wife chills easily and I have an electric blanket that plugs into the lighter for her. In this case, I know that the switch will not be left in the wrong position and find that I have dead batteries.

Attached is a diagram to show how I am going to go about this. I hope this clarifies my process for anyone.

I like your thinking on this system as it takes operator error out of the picture completely......Nice schematic of how it is done....with a 12V solenoid control. Do you have a specific brand solenoid you use? Great idea and a different approach that is unique.....

mtntopper said:

operator error

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HEY, I resemble that

mtntopper said:

I like your thinking on this system as it takes operator error out of the picture completely......Nice schematic of how it is done....with a 12V solenoid control. Do you have a specific brand solenoid you use? Great idea and a different approach that is unique.....

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there are kits and components here

The relay/solenoid that he sells is different that what I like to use, but I cant find it at the moment

eric

The solenoid that I use I pick up here locally and cost about $30.00. It is made by, I believe, Cole-Hearse and is rated at two hundred amp. The Twelve Volt Guy that Eric linked to also has them however; he does not list the manufacturer of this unit. They look the same though!

Here is a picture of his solenoid that he sells.

SkiDozer 302 said:

is rated at two hundred amp

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Now I am NOT a mechanic, and my electrical skills are basic home wiring and rewiring. For 12 volt I can figure out how to replace stuff but not much more than that. So forgive me if this is a stupid quesiton . . . but here goes:

Ok Bob ,
I am going to offer you some help here . This thread has been dormant for awhile and I am glad to see you getting it going again ,but you need some help .
You need to learn how to insult all of them "weak kneed Brand X snowcat owners" that drive those LSD's DVD's,TUCKERED out TUCKER's ,BLIMP's,BOMBSAWAY and PIMP's. This will really get them fired off and start responding .Kristi's are exempt as they are the far superior machine over all others.
So put on your little Hawaiian Shirt and those cute little short pants, with the matching suspenders and then climb up on your little stool and start beating your drum !!! When they stop laughing at your little fat short hairy legs they will respond .
Now ..... GO GET THEM !!!

Al, I am lulling them into a false sense of security and when they drop their guard then I will spring my trap. :Sleep:

Until then, I'm still trying to figure out the mystery of the solenoid ipo:

Bob,
This solenoids use is to charge the second battery. If the alternator is putting out, say, 80 amps, then this falls way below the 200 amp continuous use. However, this 200 amp rating is for “continuous” use, not surge. Surge amperage is typically rated three times the continuous cycle, in this case 600 amp surge.

Now, a starter is the only piece of equipment on a vehicle that draws high amperage, somewhere around 300 to 350 amps but that is intermittent. A hi-torque starter might be as high as 500 amps on a large V-8. When I pull in the solenoid to “self start,” I am using the voltage from the two batteries to spin the starter. Again, I am only using 300 to 350 amps, well within the range of intermittent use even if the “starter” battery is completely dead.

Here is the skinny on batteries. Your batteries are 1000 CCAs per hour. The higher the CCA rating, the greater the starting power in the battery. Car batteries are specially designed for high initial cranking amps (usually for five to 15 seconds) to start an engine; whereas, deep cycle (or marine) batteries are designed for prolonged discharges at lower amperage. The CCA rating is the number of amps a new, fully charged battery can deliver at 0 Fahrenheit for 30 seconds, while maintaining a voltage of at least 7.2 volts, for a 12 volt battery. The battery is also used to filter or stabilize power and to provide extra power for the lighting, ignition, and other accessories when their combined load exceeds the capability of the charging system, i.e., when the engine is idling.

Buying batteries with double or triple CCA ratings that exceed the OEM requirement are a waste of money for hot climates. However, in colder climates the higher the CCA rating the better, due to increased power required to crank a sluggish engine and the inefficiency of the cold battery. As batteries age, they are less capable of producing CCAs.

One of the major battery manufacturers, Exide, publishes the following table:
Available Power from battery Temperature Degrees F Power Required to crank engine
100% 80 100%
65% 32 155%
40% 0 210%
25% -32 350%


If more CCA capacity is required, two (or more) 12 volt batteries can be connected in parallel which leads me back to why I will be installing dual batteries for self recovery.

I am not sure as to the amperage of the alternator in your unit but, I am sure that you do not have a 1000 amp alternator. It takes only a few amps to charge the battery but, a starter can drain it within 15 minutes or less. That’s if you do not burn out the starter motor first by continuous cranking.

It is late and I am not sure if I confused anyone with this. If there are any more questions, maybe after some sleep tonight I can figure a better way to explain it but, I hope this helps.

If you have read down this post this far, thank you for reading.

Ohh...and Bob, you have a nice looking machine there. These units have really grown on me in the last few days!

Regards

SkiDozer302, you're doing a great job of explaining this...

Bob, think "Industial motor contactor" but for a car.

The relay/solenoid I use looks like this (ColeHersee.com). they come in dozens of configurations, but they all kinda look the same. I couldn't find the part # for the one I like, but its intended to be used on an electric golf-cart. continious duty rating is the key here. note: this one has 4 terminals...its probably not grounded internally...they can be had with 3 terminals..

Eric

Eric L said:

SkiDozer302, you're doing a great job of explaining this...

Bob, think "Industial motor contactor" but for a car.

The relay/solenoid I use looks like this (ColeHersee.com). they come in dozens of configurations, but they all kinda look the same. I couldn't find the part # for the one I like, but its intended to be used on an electric golf-cart. continious duty rating is the key here. note: this one has 4 terminals...its probably not grounded internally...they can be had with 3 terminals..

Eric

Click to expand...

There are a bunch of configurations. If you get one from an auto parts store one of the small terminals energizes the coil and the other small terminal supplys 12 volts to short out the ballast resistor on the coil. The mounting bracket has to be grounded for this one to work. On others the two small terminals are the coil and one needs to be grounded. There also is one where the coil gets 12 volts from one of the large terminals and you ground one of the small ones to energize it.

Jim

Ok here is an opinion question for all of you.

Do I put the amber flashing strobe on the front or the back of the cabin

I just got the strobe in the photo below (Photo #1). It is about 7" tall. I'm thinking of mounted it in front of the sunroof near the front of the cabin. It would make wiring very simple and seems like a pretty logical place to mount the strobe. Gordon Robertson's Snow Trac has his strobe mounted in the same place (Photo #2). On the other hand, Arlow mounted his on the rear (Photo #3) which is also where I saw mtntopper mount the lightbar on the cabin of his LMC 1500. If I carry anything on the roof, front mounting it will obscure the ability to see the stobe from behind. However I don't anticipate doing a lot of carrying on the roof, it is just something to consider.

Thoughts? Like I said, I'm leaning to mounting it on the front.

We always put the warning lights as far to the front as practical so the cross traffic at intersections would have more chance to see them as the vehicle entered the intersection.

Don't know if this applies to snow cats though. Maybe you need one at the front and one at the back.

My experience is from 30 years ago but we didn't run the wiring feeding strobes with the vehicle wiring harness. The CD system in the strobe generates electrical interference and it would cause noise in the radios. The newer units may be better.

Jim

B_Skurka said:

Ok here is an opinion question for all of you.

Do I put the amber flashing strobe on the front or the back of the cabin

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Now that we see power consumption isn't an issue, put one on the front and rear...

One thing that has bothered me for a long time was the worn out drive sprockets on my Snow Trac.

Quite by accident I stumbled across an old file and found the email address of the former Canadian importer of the Snow Tracs. He has a few parts for sale and we started talking about the drive sprockets. Turns out that he has some modified heavy duty sprockets cast many years ago to make molds for a local foundry and had a bunch of sprockets cast over the years. He no longer has any sprockets for sale, but is working on getting me a price to cast some new drive sprockets out of a bronze alloy. Part Number ST52.

I am not planning on changing my sprockets this season, even if I get them quickly. My goal will be to make this a project for next summer.

If you would like to buy some sprockets too, please send me a PM and I will put you directly in touch with him. I do NOT want to buy and then resell these sprockets, if you want a set of them I will put you directly in touch with him, it would save money on shipping to have him ship straight to you.

In the two photos below, the first is my worn out drive sprocket, the second is his heavy duty sprocket.

B_Skurka said:

Ok here is an opinion question for all of you.

Do I put the amber flashing strobe on the front or the back of the cabin

I just got the strobe in the photo below (Photo #1). It is about 7" tall. I'm thinking of mounted it in front of the sunroof near the front of the cabin. It would make wiring very simple and seems like a pretty logical place to mount the strobe. Gordon Robertson's Snow Trac has his strobe mounted in the same place (Photo #2). On the other hand, Arlow mounted his on the rear (Photo #3) which is also where I saw mtntopper mount the lightbar on the cabin of his LMC 1500. If I carry anything on the roof, front mounting it will obscure the ability to see the stobe from behind. However I don't anticipate doing a lot of carrying on the roof, it is just something to consider.

Thoughts? Like I said, I'm leaning to mounting it on the front.

Click to expand...

Bob, I looked at mounting a similar strobe on my TracMaster. It appears to me the best location is on the roof above the drivers head. My initial testing showed it to be very visible from the back, rear and both sides with the vent roof closed or even open partially. Since we normally drive on the right hand side of both roads and trails that would also make sense for the LH mounting location to be most visible to other traffic. They also make a strobe that will mount on a piece of pipe and will rise above the obstacles on the roof, but it would probably stick out like a sore thumb and be tore off by tree limbs. Hopefully today I can experiment a little more on the mounting location.

mtntopper said:

Bob, I looked at mounting a similar strobe on my TracMaster. It appears to me the best location is on the roof above the drivers head.

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Bill, I was looking a little closer at this again today. I'm going to try to stay close to the centerline of the roof, but probably offset slightly to the drivers side. The original Hella interior light is right on the centerline just forward of the roof hatch. So I'm thinking that the exterior strobe will be just to the drivers side of the center line so as not to interfear with the interior light mount.

I've also decided to add an auxilary electric heater to the cabin. This will be mounted just aft of the dual batteries. It is a 300watt ceramic, adjustable fan, direct wire unit that needs a 15 amp dedicated circuit. Good thing I upgraded the alternator to a 95 amp unit and have a new, expanded, fuse block going in with all the new wiring that is being installed.

B_Skurka said:

I've also decided to add an auxilary electric heater to the cabin. This will be mounted just aft of the dual batteries. It is a 300watt ceramic, adjustable fan, direct wire unit that needs a 15 amp dedicated circuit. Good thing I upgraded the alternator to a 95 amp unit and have a new, expanded, fuse block going in with all the new wiring that is being installed.

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I have also been thinking about another heater such as what you are talking about. What brand, price and where did you find the heater? Details, details are needed......Save me some research time and give me the details..... Are you going to fuse it or use a circuit breaker. I like the circuit breakers that are made by Cole Hersee for this type of application.....

Bob why cant you swap the sprockets right side to the left side and left side to the right side then you will be running on the other side of the tooth? The one in the picture is only worn on the one side. We do this all the time on caterpillers that 95% of the time are ripping or discing going forward.

mlang2005 said:

Bob why cant you swap the sprockets right side to the left side and left side to the right side

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They have already been flipped. Not only are the teeth on these sprockets worn but the wear is eating into the ring too. I figure my sprockets have a year or maybe 2 left in them. Also, and it is not obvious from the photo, but there are thick and thin parts to the teeth & to the perimeter ring, I've completely worn through the thicker material on both sides of the teeth and through the thick part of the ring so now the thinner material is wearing, and it will wear at a much faster rate. I think theu are more worn than you think thet are?

I am in no rush to replace them, but I happened upon the name of the Canadian importer and am starting the process now so that I can have new sprockets cast, and swapping them out can be a summer project for 2007 or 2008. This project falls into the category of buy them now because you may not have a chance to do it in the future!!! The guy I am working with has sold off or disposed of most of his Snow Trac stuff, this literally could be a last chance to get the sprockets without having to reinvent them from drawings?

mtntopper said:

I have also been thinking about another heater such as what you are talking about. What brand, price and where did you find the heater?

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Bill do a simple search for 12 volt heater on Google and you will get all the hits you need. I checked every auto parts store in the area and none had one like this. I found a couple different types on the internet that looked pretty good for my needs. Because of the limits of a VW electrical system, even with my beefed up alternator and dual batteries, I wanted to limit my choice to no more than a 20 amp draw. If I had more power, I'd have opted for a slightly different model.

See this website: http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/12voltheaters.html

They have several good choices, but you can find better prices if you hunt around (hint: eBay). The linked page I provided shows several good choices of heaters that will work for our applications.