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Greece tells company to lower diabetes drug price, company stops selling drug instead

Melensdad

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Well since Greece can no longer afford to pay for things for its citizens it is expecting companies to LOSE MONEY and continue to service the nation with drugs. Not gonna happen.

I think the drug company is making an intelligent choice in how they are handling this situation. But even so, I'm glad I don't own stock in this company.

Danish company pulls diabetes drugs from Greece over price cut

http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/afp/denmarkgreecefinanceeconomyhealthcompanynordisk

Danish pharmaceutical group Novo Nordisk said Saturday it was pulling 17 types of medication for treating diabetes from the Greek market following a government decree to lower prices of drugs.

"The products that are pulled from the market are the latest generation of insulin products in the pen system," Mike Rulis, Novo Nordisk's head of corporate communications, told AFP.

The company, the world's largest producer of insulin to treat diabetes, said it will not stop selling the 17 products but insists on keeping their prices at the level before the Greek decree took effect on May 3, forcing it to lower prices by about 25 percent.

"That means wholesellers will no longer order these products, because they can only sell them to the pharmacies at a loss, because they will only be reimbursed at the minus 25 percent level," Rulis said.

Novo Nordisk has however agreed to the price cut on its standard human insulin products, which diabetes patients take out of vials and inject with a syringe.

It will also make another product for diabetes sufferers, glucagon, available for free.

Rulis said about 50,000 people in Greece use the new generation products that the company will pull from the market, while another 40,000 use standard human insulin.

If Novo Nordisk complied with the 25 percent price cut on all products, its operations in Greece would become loss-making, Rulis said.

"The financial consequences for the company would be very significant," he said, adding "a price lowering of this magnitude in Greece would automatically trigger price reductions in other countries."
 

mak2

Active member
You do understand it is just the delivery system they are pulling correct? They can still give themselves insulin with standard syringes. The pens are just kinda expensive convience items. In short, waste of money. Actually it is Greece making the intelligent decision.
 

mak2

Active member
After reading 3 or 4 different articles, I am not sure if they are making the insulin available in vials that can be drawn up by the patients or not. One article said they were taking all insulin away from the Greeks. I dunno know, now. Regardless several other manufacturers will sell them insulin I am sure.
 

Melensdad

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The pen system is preloaded with insulin, it reduces the waste and is actually pretty economical. Further it eliminates whole problem of disposal of traditional syringes, as well as the cost of the one time use syringe. My daughter, being a type 1 insulin dependent diabetic, has used traditional syringes, the Novo-Pen system described above, as well as an insulin pump.

The Novo-pens eliminate the cost of the syringes, as well as 90% of the medical waste space because the only medical waste created is a small needle, rather than the traditional syringe AND the traditional needle.

Now all that said, Greece cannot expect a company to supply products to its residents and lose money.

If you buy a product from a company and the company loses money every time it sells you the item, can you expect it to continue to provide service to you over the long run? In fact can you expect it to stay in business?

And the next company will be in the same position, as will the next after that.

Pharma companies made a gross profit of about 18% according to several sources, how can they be expected to give a 25% price discount and remain in business?
 

OhioTC18

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We'll see if Aventis or Eli Lily step up and supply Greece with a similar product.
 

mak2

Active member
My point was greek patients will still be able to obtain insulin to adequately control their diabetes, unless those other articles are correct. The article you cited says they are only pulling the pens, the other articles (some a couple hours old when I googled it) stated the company was pulling all insulin. I understand the pens as being mainly for convience, reduced pain and overall compliance. I think, mainly for kids, you probably know more about that than I do.
 

Melensdad

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We'll see if Aventis or Eli Lily step up and supply Greece with a similar product.

I'm sure there are plenty of companies that will sell insulin to Greece, including this company.

I'm also sure that NONE of them will sell insulin to Greece AT A LOSS.

Think about this folks, if a very small country like Greece gets a price concession of 25% simply because it decrees it so, then what will stop every other nation from doing the same and bankrupting every drug company on the planet.

I ask again: Pharma companies made a gross profit of about 18% according to several sources, how can they be expected to give a 25% price discount and remain in business?



I understand the pens as being mainly for convience, reduced pain and overall compliance. I think, mainly for kids, you probably know more about that than I do.
Actually they've done studies and found that pen use increases the regular needed use of insulin and consequently the A1C levels in patients blood are lower with pen users than with traditional syringe users, leading to fewer complications in healthcare later. The pumps do an even better job of controlling A1C levels at more 'normal' levels and therefore decreasing complications.
 

mak2

Active member
The insulin is not what causes the company to lose money, it is the delivery system that is so expensive.
 

OhioTC18

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I'm sure there are plenty of companies that will sell insulin to Greece, including this company.

I'm also sure that NONE of them will sell insulin to Greece AT A LOSS.

bankrupting every drug company on the planet.

They are still selling insulin to Greece. Just not the pen. Eliminating one segment of their inventory is not going to bankrupt them.
 

mak2

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It is a high profit, expensive delivery system, I have never even seen one in the hospital.
 

Melensdad

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They are still selling insulin to Greece. Just not the pen. Eliminating one segment of their inventory is not going to bankrupt them.
It is a high profit, expensive delivery system, I have never even seen one in the hospital.
The pen would not be used in a hospital because there is no need for it there.

However I think both of you are missing the bigger point. The company does not make a 25% profit margin.

So if it does not make 25% profit then how can they give a 25% discount and remain in business? Its a simple question. Why is it so hard to address the question I ask?
 

mak2

Active member
The pen would not be used in a hospital because there is no need for it there.

However I think both of you are missing the bigger point. The company does not make a 25% profit margin.

So if it does not make 25% profit then how can they give a 25% discount and remain in business? Its a simple question. Why is it so hard to address the question I ask?

No, you are missing the point. Supply and demand. In this case Greece is on the demand side. Greece has decided the pen is not worth the money. How much the company makes is not the point.
 

Melensdad

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No, you are missing the point. Supply and demand. In this case Greece is on the demand side. Greece has decided the pen is not worth the money. How much the company makes is not the point.

NO sir, I beg to differ but here is what the company said:
If Novo Nordisk complied with the 25 percent price cut on all products, its operations in Greece would become loss-making, Rulis said.
So if the pen is the high profit item then the insulin is the low profit item and if they would sell at a loss if they reduced their price 25% then clearly it is the pen that is helping to support other items. Greece had demanded the price reduction on ALL products from this company, NOT JUST the pen product. If the pen product is supporting the profit margin, then how could they possibly be profitable without their high profit item at 25% discount?

Are you actually saying that they should sell their drugs at a loss? If so then how long can they pay their employees before they begin to bounce checks?
 

OhioTC18

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Greece had demanded the price reduction on ALL products from this company, NOT JUST the pen product.
Novo Nordisk has however agreed to the price cut on its standard human insulin products, which diabetes patients take out of vials and inject with a syringe.

But they agreed to lower the price on other insulin products. And offer another item for free. So the pen is no longer available, use injectable.
 

mak2

Active member
Ok, Greece said they would only pay a certain amount for a company's products. Still supply and demand. Profit does not matter on the demand side. If Greece does not buy insulin from Nordisk it will buy it from someone else. The company that sells them insulin will make a profit. UHC is evidence based, not profit based. You will see a lot more of this kind of stuff if you look for it. I understand why you are trying to get me to say the company should lose money to supply medical equiptment, I wont, Nordisk should be more competitive.
 

Melensdad

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But they agreed to lower the price on other insulin products. And offer another item for free. So the pen is no longer available, use injectable.

Yup, drug companies use high profit items to support acts of charity like providing some items for free. No doubt that some other nation's profits will now be funneled to support Greece. At least for now. Until other nations do the same. And eventually everyone will have limited choices and reduced options.
 

mak2

Active member
Yup, drug companies use high profit items to support acts of charity like providing some items for free. No doubt that some other nation's profits will now be funneled to support Greece. At least for now. Until other nations do the same. And eventually everyone will have limited choices and reduced options.

:hammer: how bout more efficent healthcare utilization guided by evidence based practice? At least that is how I perfer to look at it.
 

thcri

Gone But Not Forgotten
The pen would not be used in a hospital because there is no need for it there.

However I think both of you are missing the bigger point. The company does not make a 25% profit margin.

So if it does not make 25% profit then how can they give a 25% discount and remain in business? Its a simple question. Why is it so hard to address the question I ask?


If they are not making a 25% profit then they can't discount an item 25% unless it is a a very small part of their business. I have to assume that the pen is their biggest item Using syringes is a pain in the ass and not friendly when in public.
 

mak2

Active member
If they are not making a 25% profit then they can't discount an item 25% unless it is a a very small part of their business. I have to assume that the pen is their biggest item Using syringes is a pain in the ass and not friendly when in public.

that is not exactly where you give yourself an insulin shot. Usually.
 

thcri

Gone But Not Forgotten
that is not exactly where you give yourself an insulin shot. Usually.

You need to use emoticons more often. The use of the syringe is a pain and a nuisance to use. The Pen a good person can give himself a shot at a dinner table and no one would even know he did it.
 

OhioTC18

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If they are not making a 25% profit then they can't discount an item 25% unless it is a a very small part of their business. I have to assume that the pen is their biggest item Using syringes is a pain in the ass and not friendly when in public.

According to the article Bob referenced, 55% of the people use that product. I suspect that product is very profitable for them. Especially since they reduced the price on the product that 45% of the people use. The pen is a convenience, as is the pump. My son uses the pump.
 

mak2

Active member
You need to use emoticons more often. The use of the syringe is a pain and a nuisance to use. The Pen a good person can give himself a shot at a dinner table and no one would even know he did it.

So, are you saying you dont get my jokes without a smilie? I crack me up lot and you guys dont even get it.
 

Melensdad

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:hammer: how bout more efficent healthcare utilization guided by evidence based practice? At least that is how I perfer to look at it.

:hammer: Right back at you, how about Greece is stealing profits from this company's sales in other nations to support its citizens and the only way that "more efficient healthcare utilization" can exist in this case, which already has universal health care, is to take profits from other nations, and since UHC, which you also have repeatedly proclaimed is the most efficient type of system, how do you expect even more efficient utilization based on "evidence based practice" and once this little bubble that Greece lives in pops because other nations demand price reductions to the point that the US consumers are paying for everyone else's health care then we will have fewer choices, less medical innovation, and fewer new products in the future.
 

mak2

Active member
So now buying insulin from the most competitive provider is stealing profits. Okay Melensdad, I just dont think that argument is really intellectually honest.
 

Melensdad

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So now buying insulin from the most competitive provider is stealing profits.

That does not seem to be what is being reported.

Here from BBC, nothing about buying from the most competitive provider. In fact nothing but an order by the Greek government to all drug companies to cut their prices by 25%. Period.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10189367.stm

Insulin giant pulls medicine from Greece over price cut

The world's leading supplier of the anti-diabetes drug insulin is withdrawing a state-of-the-art medication from Greece.

Novo Nordisk, a Danish company, objects to a government decree ordering a 25% price cut in all medicines.

A campaign group has condemned the move as "brutal capitalist blackmail".

More than 50,000 Greeks with diabetes use Novo Nordisk's product, which is injected via an easy-to-use fountain pen-like device.

A spokesman for the Danish pharmaceutical company said it was withdrawing the product from the Greek market because the price cut would force its business in Greece to run at a loss.

The company was also concerned that the compulsory 25% reduction would have a knock-on effect because other countries use Greece as a key reference point for setting drug prices.

'Insensitive'
Greece wants to slash its enormous medical bill as part of its effort to reduce the country's crippling debt.

International pharmaceutical companies are owed billions in unpaid bills. Novo Nordisk claims it is owed $36m (£24.9m) dollars by the Greek state.

Pavlos Panayotacos, whose 10-year-old daughter Nephele has diabetes, has written to Novo Nordisk's chairman to criticise the move.

"As an economist I realise the importance of making a profit, but healthcare is more than just the bottom line," he wrote.

"As you well may know, Greece is presently in dire economic and social straits, and you could not have acted in a more insensitive manner at a more inopportune time."

The Greek diabetes association was more robust, describing the Danes' actions as "brutal blackmail" and "a violation of corporate social responsibility".

The Danish chairman, Lars Sorensen, wrote to Mr Panayotacos stressing that it was "the irresponsible management of finances by the Greek government which puts both you and our company in this difficult position".

People with diabetes in Greece have warned that some could die as a result of this action.

But a spokesman for Novo Nordisk said this issue was not about killing people. By way of compensation, he said the company would make available an insulin product called glucagen, free of charge.
But healthcare is not just about the bottom line.

Clearly we have to expect companies to lose money and yet somehow stay in business?
 

mak2

Active member
Evidence? Proof? Even a hint of a possibility???

I dont even know what you are talking about anymore. In any case the company's profit is not Greece's problem, getting insulin for its people is. Do you think somehow it would be better for them if they got rid of that nasty old UHC system and emulate US, the most expensive system in the world. Doesnt sound like a very good idea to me.
 

Melensdad

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I dont even know what you are talking about anymore. In any case the company's profit is not Greece's problem, getting insulin for its people is. Do you think somehow it would be better for them if they got rid of that nasty old UHC system and emulate US, the most expensive system in the world. Doesnt sound like a very good idea to me.
I am talking about the fact that Greece is forcing this company to send its costs to other nations.

You can keep claiming that some company will make a profit but that is not in any of the articles I can find anywhere.

According to the uber-liberal Daily Kos:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/5/29/73233/8710
It appears that International pharmaceutical companies are owed billions in unpaid bills. Novo Nordisk claims it is owed $36m (£24.9m) dollars by the Greek state as BBC stated this morning and their line in the sand to stop this profit hemorrhaging is to cut off an entire nation of their life saving product.

Let's read that again: They are owed $36 million. Now how long does it take for Novo Nordis to earn $36 million on their total product line?? Days, weeks, maybe a month?
OK now read that again carefully.

Tell me what you see.

If you can't see it let me help you out. Greece owes this company $36,000,000.00 and the Daily Kos suggests that it will only take a couple days/weeks maybe a month to earn that money. But from where? If it can't earn it in Greece then it must come from the citizens of other nations.

Is that not just a subtle way of implying what I have been asserting all along? People like me, you and others like us ALL AROUND THE GLOBE are now paying for Greece's health care. And if that is the case then what will happen when when OTHER NATIONS FOLLOW THE LEAD of Greece and mandate a 25% cut in prices? Will that not then send more costs to YOU AND ME and people?

What bothers me is that, if you simply follow the logic, if every nation forces a price reduction around the globe then these companies will be bankrupt. Or if just a few big nations like the US don't follow the lead of Greece then we few nations will be paying for every other nation. This has nothing to do with being more 'efficient' via UHC because it is simply redistribution of wealth and passing on higher costs to us. It is really this simple.
 
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