Forums Forums - Off Topic Forum FUN




Go Back   Forums Forums - Off Topic Forum FUN > Snow Trac ST4, Kristi, Thiokol/LMC, Tucker, Bombardier & Other Snowcat Discussions > Snowcat Adventure & Usage Forum

Snowcat Adventure & Usage Forum Snow Trac, Kristi, Thickol/LMC, Tucker, Bombardier stories & discussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-27-2019, 09:24 PM
redsqwrl's Avatar
redsqwrl redsqwrl is offline
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: E central WI
Posts: 2,137
Thanks: 1,198
Thanked 1,655 Times in 664 Posts
redsqwrl is on a distinguished road
Default Check this out, electric snow cat....

Its the right color


https://globalnews.ca/news/4983239/f...wcat-edmonton/
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to redsqwrl For This Useful Post:
alryA (04-27-2019), Melensdad  (04-27-2019)
  #2  
Old 04-27-2019, 09:31 PM
Melensdad's Avatar
Melensdad Melensdad is offline
Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt

 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 35,912
Thanks: 2,285
Thanked 9,004 Times in 3,645 Posts
Melensdad has a spectacular aura aboutMelensdad has a spectacular aura about
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

Wonder what range it has?

Assuming it uses a battery bank roughly equivalent to a Tesla automobile I wonder how far it can go? Figure the heater is running full blast and the tracks and snow have exponentially more drag on the power supply than rubber car tires on an asphalt roadway, I presume the range is exponentially lower. Still, if it has a 50 mile range that would be more than enough for many applications.
__________________

"We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion:
the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases,
while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage
of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force."
- Ayn Rand
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-27-2019, 09:56 PM
Cidertom's Avatar
Cidertom Cidertom is online now
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Benton County, Oregon, USA
Posts: 925
Thanks: 650
Thanked 984 Times in 393 Posts
Cidertom is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

But how is it charged? If you have to use a fueled genset to charge then the conversion losses make it less efficient than direct fuel burning. If it can be charged by otherwise wasted fuel (such as minimum loads on genset) then it's a +. Not trying to down play the opportunity, but want correct math to be used to decide.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-27-2019, 10:35 PM
MNoutdoors's Avatar
MNoutdoors MNoutdoors is offline
Tracked Evolution Central
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: AK.,AZ.,CA.,MN.,MT. Home of all the villes
Posts: 3,564
Thanks: 6
Thanked 1,486 Times in 604 Posts
MNoutdoors is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

I posted this a while back, repost

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/show...8&postcount=25
__________________
What ever happened to the good old days
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-27-2019, 10:52 PM
MNoutdoors's Avatar
MNoutdoors MNoutdoors is offline
Tracked Evolution Central
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: AK.,AZ.,CA.,MN.,MT. Home of all the villes
Posts: 3,564
Thanks: 6
Thanked 1,486 Times in 604 Posts
MNoutdoors is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

This is The new Diesel Electric PB

https://www.pistenbully.com/usa/en/v...ine/600-e.html

Like I mentioned they have been around for awhile already (2014)

https://www.saminfo.com/headline-new...l-electric-cat
__________________
What ever happened to the good old days

Last edited by MNoutdoors; 04-27-2019 at 11:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-27-2019, 11:13 PM
MNoutdoors's Avatar
MNoutdoors MNoutdoors is offline
Tracked Evolution Central
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: AK.,AZ.,CA.,MN.,MT. Home of all the villes
Posts: 3,564
Thanks: 6
Thanked 1,486 Times in 604 Posts
MNoutdoors is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

This was one of there first attempts a few years back (April 2015)

http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20150...he-snowcat-set
__________________
What ever happened to the good old days
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-27-2019, 11:29 PM
MNoutdoors's Avatar
MNoutdoors MNoutdoors is offline
Tracked Evolution Central
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: AK.,AZ.,CA.,MN.,MT. Home of all the villes
Posts: 3,564
Thanks: 6
Thanked 1,486 Times in 604 Posts
MNoutdoors is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

We even talked about this with Big Al in 2010

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/arch...p/t-33012.html
__________________
What ever happened to the good old days
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-28-2019, 08:25 AM
MNoutdoors's Avatar
MNoutdoors MNoutdoors is offline
Tracked Evolution Central
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: AK.,AZ.,CA.,MN.,MT. Home of all the villes
Posts: 3,564
Thanks: 6
Thanked 1,486 Times in 604 Posts
MNoutdoors is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidertom View Post
But how is it charged? If you have to use a fueled genset to charge then the conversion losses make it less efficient than direct fuel burning. If it can be charged by otherwise wasted fuel (such as minimum loads on genset) then it's a +. Not trying to down play the opportunity, but want correct math to be used to decide.
Wind and solar the article says
__________________
What ever happened to the good old days
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-28-2019, 08:28 AM
MNoutdoors's Avatar
MNoutdoors MNoutdoors is offline
Tracked Evolution Central
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: AK.,AZ.,CA.,MN.,MT. Home of all the villes
Posts: 3,564
Thanks: 6
Thanked 1,486 Times in 604 Posts
MNoutdoors is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melensdad View Post
Wonder what range it has?

Assuming it uses a battery bank roughly equivalent to a Tesla automobile I wonder how far it can go? Figure the heater is running full blast and the tracks and snow have exponentially more drag on the power supply than rubber car tires on an asphalt roadway, I presume the range is exponentially lower. Still, if it has a 50 mile range that would be more than enough for many applications.
As per the article “45km, at a speed of 20km/hr on a single charge.”
__________________
What ever happened to the good old days
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-28-2019, 08:33 AM
MNoutdoors's Avatar
MNoutdoors MNoutdoors is offline
Tracked Evolution Central
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: AK.,AZ.,CA.,MN.,MT. Home of all the villes
Posts: 3,564
Thanks: 6
Thanked 1,486 Times in 604 Posts
MNoutdoors is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

It is electric, and it does go on snow........ but, realistically with the tracks from a sidewalk plow 14.5” wide, it’s not a deep snow machine. So to truly call it a snowcat is a bit of a misnomer
__________________
What ever happened to the good old days
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MNoutdoors For This Useful Post:
Melensdad  (04-28-2019)
  #11  
Old 04-28-2019, 08:55 AM
redsqwrl's Avatar
redsqwrl redsqwrl is offline
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: E central WI
Posts: 2,137
Thanks: 1,198
Thanked 1,655 Times in 664 Posts
redsqwrl is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidertom View Post
But how is it charged? If you have to use a fueled genset to charge then the conversion losses make it less efficient than direct fuel burning. If it can be charged by otherwise wasted fuel (such as minimum loads on genset) then it's a +. Not trying to down play the opportunity, but want correct math to be used to decide.
from an environmental science class back in he day, a traditional automobile gets about 14% of usable work out of the energy it consumes.

a coal fired power plant (fluidized bed) could get about 40% usable energy out of its fuel load.

( transportation and conversion losses aside) there is some gains by charging off the grid. with that said, the article points the machine towards doing work in a pristine sanctuary type environments. I imagine farting and off gassing batteries would be exempt from (emissions)

I was going to make a joke about the machine looking like a SW48 mated with a kristi KT-7, but oddly, I kind of like the way it looks.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to redsqwrl For This Useful Post:
Pontoon Princess (04-28-2019)
  #12  
Old 04-28-2019, 12:21 PM
Archmage's Avatar
Archmage Archmage is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 64
Thanks: 93
Thanked 122 Times in 33 Posts
Archmage is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

Probably go more places than a sno-trac.
__________________
Travis Nottingham

1974 Tucker 1544
1980 Tucker 1643
1984 Tucker 1642
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Archmage For This Useful Post:
GlacierSean (04-28-2019), Kristi Kt-4 (04-28-2019), redsqwrl (04-28-2019)
  #13  
Old 04-28-2019, 12:48 PM
MNoutdoors's Avatar
MNoutdoors MNoutdoors is offline
Tracked Evolution Central
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: AK.,AZ.,CA.,MN.,MT. Home of all the villes
Posts: 3,564
Thanks: 6
Thanked 1,486 Times in 604 Posts
MNoutdoors is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

Quote:
Originally Posted by redsqwrl View Post
from an environmental science class back in he day, a traditional automobile gets about 14% of usable work out of the energy it consumes.

a coal fired power plant (fluidized bed) could get about 40% usable energy out of its fuel load.

( transportation and conversion losses aside) there is some gains by charging off the grid. with that said, the article points the machine towards doing work in a pristine sanctuary type environments. I imagine farting and off gassing batteries would be exempt from (emissions)

I was going to make a joke about the machine looking like a SW48 mated with a kristi KT-7, but oddly, I kind of like the way it looks.
This is true, electrics put more energy to the wheel or track, and in the case of tracked,your wind resistance is almost nil.
The key to electrics is the regenative factor
Attached Images
 
__________________
What ever happened to the good old days
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MNoutdoors For This Useful Post:
Pontoon Princess (04-28-2019)
  #14  
Old 04-28-2019, 07:26 PM
1boringguy 1boringguy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Idaho
Posts: 61
Thanks: 177
Thanked 118 Times in 42 Posts
1boringguy is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

It's not too different, size/weight, than a Tesla Roadster, and it's a big rocket anyway right? A couple of minor modifications and this thing will be ready for Mars. So there's that too.

Seriously though, takes a lot of money to r&d new tech. but Antarctic science can justify it, and then the trickle down begins.

Electric vehicle tech has come a ways since that 2010 conversation, and I have to admit I've wondered if it would be a cool project or a nightmare to one day gather up pieces of a wrecked Tesla and convert the Skidozer to electric. Certainly the issues with electric and cold temps make a hybrid a lot more sensible even if you can figure out how to charge an all electric in the middle of nowhere. Needs a little more tech dev yet, but still perhaps a cool nightmare one day .
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-28-2019, 07:52 PM
alryA alryA is offline
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Houghton MI
Posts: 135
Thanks: 135
Thanked 302 Times in 83 Posts
alryA is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

In the case of a tracked machine, your regenative factor is close to nil. The only reason I can theorize them trying a diesel/electric motor drive is the negate the terrible losses that hydrostatic drives have. They are indeed quite bad.

Snow track machines are like chain saws. You need lots of HP per lb and if you battery system weights more than the engine, you then need to compensate with larger foot print, ak tracks which require more HP to spin. Now you need a lager battery. Its a viscous circle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MNoutdoors View Post
This is true, electrics put more energy to the wheel or track, and in the case of tracked,your wind resistance is almost nil.
The key to electrics is the regenative factor
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-28-2019, 09:05 PM
MNoutdoors's Avatar
MNoutdoors MNoutdoors is offline
Tracked Evolution Central
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: AK.,AZ.,CA.,MN.,MT. Home of all the villes
Posts: 3,564
Thanks: 6
Thanked 1,486 Times in 604 Posts
MNoutdoors is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

Quote:
Originally Posted by alryA View Post
In the case of a tracked machine, your regenative factor is close to nil. The only reason I can theorize them trying a diesel/electric motor drive is the negate the terrible losses that hydrostatic drives have. They are indeed quite bad.

Snow track machines are like chain saws. You need lots of HP per lb and if you battery system weights more than the engine, you then need to compensate with larger foot print, ak tracks which require more HP to spin. Now you need a lager battery. Its a viscous circle.
I think the regen is really a factor of terrain,in the Midwest you are correct. in the mountains downhill is huge 17-20% regen in the big snowcats I believe there is enough regen to run the tiller.( 140KW motor) On steeper slopes downhill

I have built some large carriages in the sawmill industry and using hydraulic drives and accumulators. We were able to cut operating cost dramatically on the carriages storing the kinetic energy used to stop the one direction and reuse it in the reverse direction

Even some of large garbage trucks are using hydraulic assisted energy stored from going down hills to assist in making it up large hills
__________________
What ever happened to the good old days

Last edited by MNoutdoors; 04-28-2019 at 09:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-28-2019, 09:16 PM
MNoutdoors's Avatar
MNoutdoors MNoutdoors is offline
Tracked Evolution Central
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: AK.,AZ.,CA.,MN.,MT. Home of all the villes
Posts: 3,564
Thanks: 6
Thanked 1,486 Times in 604 Posts
MNoutdoors is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

The garbage truck systems

A new kind of hybrid technology for heavy-duty vehicles uses hydraulics, rather than batteries, to store energy. Trucks using the system promise to be 30 percent more fuel-efficient than conventional vehicles. The system could also cost less than similarly performing hybrid technology that requires batteries.


Green machine: This truck sports a hydraulic hybrid system that will save on fuel and brake maintenance.
The city of Ann Arbor, MI, which is rolling out four garbage trucks that use the technology, is among the first in North America to use such trucks. It was also among the first to receive funding for them through the U.S. Department of Energy’s Clean Cities Program, which is intended to help local governments reduce fuel consumption. The technology could help cities and trucking companies meet the new fuel-economy regulations for heavy-duty vehicles that are now being drafted by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

The technology was developed at the EPA National Vehicle and Fuel Emissions Laboratory in Ann Arbor. The EPA partnered with the Cleveland, OH-based industrial giant Eaton to bring it to market. Christopher Grundler, deputy director of the EPA’s office of transportation and air quality, says the technology is a promising way to dramatically improve fuel economy on large trucks. “The beauty of this is, you don’t need battery technology, which is still expensive,” he says.

The technology, called hydraulic launch assist, is different from the electric hybrid technology currently used on some passenger cars and buses. Those systems use an electric-motor generator, along with batteries, to store energy that would otherwise be wasted–for example, the energy that dissipates during braking.

The hydraulic system uses a pump motor and a tank, called an accumulator, that stores energy by using automatic transmission fluid to compress nitrogen gas. When the driver lets off the accelerator, the wheels drive a hydraulic pump, which pumps hydraulic fluid to compress nitrogen gas and slow down the vehicle. When the driver accelerates, the high-pressure gas pushes the hydraulic fluid back through the pump motor, and the resulting energy drives the wheels.

This regenerative braking system captures up to 75 percent of the energy that would otherwise be wasted as heat during stopping and starting. This energy is then used to get the vehicle moving again. So it’s ideal for vehicles like garbage trucks, which regularly stop and start. The system is so heavy that it’s not efficient for cars, but it’s perfect for trucks.

Hybrid electric technologies already exist for buses, but hydraulic hybrids offer additional advantages. One potential one is cost: including the cost of the system and the savings from maintenance, a hydraulic system would likely cost cities and companies less money than both conventional trucks and current electric hybrids.

Because Eaton’s technology requires the driver to merely ease off the accelerator to hydraulically stop the vehicle (as opposed to applying the brakes), the new system will likely mean huge savings in brake repairs. A traditional refuse truck needs replacement brakes several times a year, at about $2,000 per brake job. Such brake jobs would be needed less than once a year with the hydraulic regenerative braking system.

Battery-based hybrids also reduce brake repairs, but to a lesser extent because their battery-based regenerative braking systems don’t slow the vehicles down as much. Heavy-duty electric hybrids only capture about 25 percent of the energy during braking because the amount of battery storage to capture more would cost too much to be practical. Since hydraulic hybrids store more energy–capturing up to 75 percent of the energy during braking– they’re more efficient than battery-based hybrids.

The new trucks will each cost $40,000 more than their conventional diesel counterparts. Ann Arbor is receiving grant money to offset the difference–$156,000 in federal stimulus money from the Clean Energy Coalition, a nonprofit focused on expanding the use of clean energy technology in Michigan. (The money is a portion of a grant that the Clean Energy Coalition received from the DOE.)

Andrew Brix, energy programs manager for the city of Ann Arbor, says the system will save $9,120 in fuel every year. By doubling the life of the brakes, the system will also save $3,300 a year in maintenance. Vince Duray, Eaton’s chief engineer of the hydraulic launch assist, says that even without the government grant, the system should pay for itself within three years (although Duray uses more optimistic assumptions about savings from fuel consumption and brake repairs than the Ann Arbor officials).

Eaton has orders for 80 vehicles equipped with the technology. Though the initial application is garbage trucks, the company is eyeing other possibilities, like buses with a heavy start-and-stop route.

The EPA is also working on a more revolutionary type of hydraulic technology, called a “series” system. While the hydraulic launch assist used in the Ann Arbor trucks helps the vehicle start rolling, the series replaces the entire drive train, which means the engine is not connected to the wheels. Instead, the engine pressurizes the nitrogen tank, which pushes hydraulic fluid to drive the wheels. In this arrangement, the engine doesn’t have to supply bursts of power for acceleration or driving up hills–this power comes from the nitrogen tank. As a result, the engine can be smaller and run at a steady, efficient rate. The system is 40 to 60 percent more efficient than conventional diesel trucks in city traffic.

Joseph Kovach, vice president of technology and innovation for Parker Hannifin Hydraulic Group Worldwide, which is developing the series hybrid, says his company is testing the system on delivery trucks, buses, and refuse trucks. The city of Miami will use it on a dozen refuse trucks beginning in September, and FedEx Ground expects it on some of its vans by spring 2011. While Eaton is also pursuing the series technology and thinks it has great potential, it’s working to reduce the costs of this technology before it brings its version to market.
__________________
What ever happened to the good old days
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MNoutdoors For This Useful Post:
1boringguy (04-29-2019)
  #18  
Old 04-28-2019, 09:47 PM
MNoutdoors's Avatar
MNoutdoors MNoutdoors is offline
Tracked Evolution Central
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: AK.,AZ.,CA.,MN.,MT. Home of all the villes
Posts: 3,564
Thanks: 6
Thanked 1,486 Times in 604 Posts
MNoutdoors is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Check this out, electric snow cat....

Hydraulic sawmill regeneration principle:
Attached Images
 
__________________
What ever happened to the good old days
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MNoutdoors For This Useful Post:
Snowshadow (05-01-2019)
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
another snow cats are cool blog to fact check (Tucker) redsqwrl Snowcat History, Articles, Manuals, Brochures & Recollections Forum 5 12-26-2018 08:20 PM
electric snow cat? leadvillerpm Snowcat Restoration & Modification Projects Forum 29 02-12-2010 11:21 AM
Snow trac Variator oil level check and add hendog Snowcat Repairs, Parts & Problems Forum 3 12-13-2009 03:15 AM
Electric Cars: increase pollution + crash the electric grid? Melensdad Cars, Trucks Forum 3 08-23-2009 02:36 PM
Electric Snow Machine Ceiling Cat Photos, Cartoons & Videos Forum 0 03-10-2009 02:04 AM







All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © 2002 - 2018 www.ForumsForums.com