snow trac heater box

So I have done a ton of searching and even a couple of direct phone calls and I am convinced that there is not a VW application for the heater boxes.

I found a discussion about a member who fit 1200 or 1500 heat boxes to a dual port 1600 with some fabbing.

I found this from L.S. "ST4 heater boxes after 1963 are NON STANDARD. They took standard heater boxes ad reworked the nozzles to accomodate the variator towers. All the work was braised sheetmetal. Prior to 63 they had "Stale Air", stay away from these. They only fit 40 Hp and smaller. Only a couple of years of 40 HP have clean air boxes and the tubing is small diameter so it won't fit anything else. My buddy Earl rebuilt several and even modified some 1600 boxes from scratch, just the way they did at the factory, with tin snips and a braising torch. It's tedious, but do-able. Take NEW heater boxes to a welding shop, and some old ones to compare them against. We also found that it was handy to have a transmission and complete engine block , on a dolly arraingement so that you could test fit them without having to try and force the motor in and out of the engine compartment. Believe me that this is one of the most arduous tasks on restoring an ST4."


I have a VW Bug motor from 1974 (AH) that motor came with extra heater boxes and they fit sort of close. instead of trying to find the boxes from a van or bus (single exhaust outlet) I think I will be cracking out the welder and die grinder to chop of the valves and turn the valves to miss the towers,

has any one had any luck finding a heater that is close. My VW Guru is thinking that early bus are what we need, they are J style and head off to the side, I am going to find a pair and see..

What do you know?
Mike

I am staying with my "stale air " right now. They are not bad. I have been with a few larger engines and the extra heat is nice .starting out in high gear is a plus also.
I just finished rebuilding my heater lastnight and waiting on my starter so I can put the 1200 back in.
with all the work you have i would give the one you have a try the first season.
jim
I can send some photos if you want.

Is the "stale Air" a term or a product. the stale air term was used with a rectangle looking air box in one of the Sno trac rebuild threads.

I replaced the bad 1600 with a really nice running 1600. the bad motor had a header on it, and that is reinstalled. (it is not staying)

I guess I was hoping the 1600 heaters were a specific VW product as i have access to many air cooled VW at a local VW collector. I have tried two types of bug heater boxes and neither are a direct fit. the 74 dual port 1600 boxes will fit nicely (after I spend the time reworking them). I don't want to where my welcome thin digging through each pile looking for a different box.

I didn't remember yours having a 1600 in it. I thought it had the 1200.
Some 1600 were installed by the factory but the VW heaters were cut by them. No it isn't a VW cut job.
Sounds like your moving right along. Do you plan on running it this season?
Picture of mine. It uses the same air that cools the engine for my heat and defrost. That is why we call it stale air.

the stle air systems use air off the engine to blow through the boxes to make hot air. 2 problems with that are one not much air flow problem #2 is that you also get all the stink of leaking pushrod tubes oil leaks and pcv vapors in the cabin. the fresh air system uses surplus ait out of the fan tower pushed through heat exchangers than to the cabin for more air flow and cleaner air as the heater box always has a positive pressure on it. my modified outlet pipes stick almoste streight up and point out ward slightly i figure about 75 degrees form horizontal

Thanks for the photo Jim. that is the same heater box that I found referenced in another members rebuild. Your photo shows it perfectly.

As far as running it this season, I bought it for parts so the primary purpose is secondary in nature. I swapped the bad AE motor for a Good AH motor. the camera was dieing but I managed to grab a quick photo.

Don.

I am going to mock up the old (ventilated) motor and spare variator and re work my heater boxes to fit, I like the idea of remote mounting the heat valves, the Yellow master has that installed that way, I can route heat to the carb from either side of the motor.

I am now turning my attention to the Front most shock mounts and track adjusters, the shock mounts look like they are contacting the guides, I can't find a clear maunal image(gold cord) of the early machines, Dons (dds) original (before the big wheel conversion) front trucks has the shock twisted in just like this machine so maybe they are ok and just the smaller boggie wheels are allowing the interference.
the adjusters need a die ran up them to clean up the threads, they do adjust, I just don't like poor thread form, (no galling threads on my watch) I suppose they are metric thread pitch?

the photos are of the before and after motor. AE is the holed motor. AH is the new motor with the 126 A tin on it. hard to read the tag but it is there.

Mike

The track is adjusted only from the rear. The long adjuster near the front boggies is a drive chain tightener. Don't over tighten that . you are saying that the threads need chased. I am not sure if it is metric or not.
I see a case hole.Is that on top ?
Jim

adjusters:
I set the front adjusters to allow 3/4 of a inch of movement on the drive chains, one was a little less one was a little more, I rolled the machine back and forth and checked the top and bottom to make sure there wasn't any preload hiding on the other side.
The rear adjusters threads are mared up where they go through the bracket, so when tightening he tracks the nut has to run over those roughed up threads.
engine:
Yes that hole is right on top, passenger side case halve. just in front of the flywheel.
Funny thing on the hole is that the connecting rod seen thru the hole is still hooked to the crank (and piston). I am thinking the cyl on the other side is the one that broke. that motor still ran fairly well it was very weak but it did run, most people that have seen the motor can't believe it failed in that manner. I will pull it apart and see what happened another day.....

Mike

pics of 1971 snow trac 1600cc heat exchangers.and pipe.sorry there not very good.

Mike the threads in the adjusters is sae threads as every thing except the w=vw stuff is sae i broke one of the adjusters a while back and replaced it with 5/8 all thread just cut the old stub off welded in a nut screwed in the all thread with a jam nut and it's now better than new and grade 8

Jim S thanks a bunch for posting a photo, Now I understand regardless of stale air or notso stale air that the outlets of the pipes need to be turned out(from a VW application). I also understand why I have seperate valves/flappers in a box of parts that came with it. that last photo of the exhaust pipe makes the exhaust hole in the frame/floor make sense as well.

Don (dds) I wondered if the machine was SAE or not, I can stop procrastinating about getting a metric die and get at it....

Mike

the whole machine is sae except for the vw spacific parts also a note to self i have an old parts rig with stale aie the guy routed the exhaust pipe up through the floor than through a old radiator heat exchangers like you see in the old buildings on tv than out through the back the heat exchanger is located under the passengers seat on the left side thaught it was a cool way to rob a bit of extra heat

ABOUT "STALE-AIR" Stale air tended to bring in all kinds of foul smells. In the 60's and 70's EVERY ST4 I saw at Ski Areas in Vermont and New Hampshire had the roof open, all the windows open and the lone ski patrol passenger hanging out the back to aviod the fumes. Stale Air went out well before production of the 1200 (40 HP) ended. So the last years of 40 HP had clean air heater boxes. The years are 63, 64, and 65. Those are the ones to look for. On both Stale Air and Clean Air models lots of Valve noise from the engine is transmitted up thru the heater hoses and blast out across the windshield creating quite a high noise level. THIS CAN ONLY BE REMEDIED ON CLEAN AIR ENGINES very readily. Later years of VW's, starting around 65 had mufflers built into the hoses connecting the heater boxes to the heating ducts on the chasis. Unfortunately there is not enough room to use them in the busy engine compartment of an ST4. However they can be cut down in length and made to work.
The problem with the fumes is slightly dangerous. It will show up on the windshield as a film of oil. This is toxic and very bad for your lungs. Any oil spilled on the engine, any leaks in the exhaust, or the push rod tubs comes directly into the cab. This is one of the reasons for having a good seal between the hood and the air induction horn. Any greese, oil, or exhaust in the engine compartment gets sucked into the motor and blown thru the heat system. A Stale Air bus or bug was likely to have gray oil stains right where the defrost vents were on the windshield.
On a lighter note, a squirell set up shop in one of the heater ducts and the next time I started up my '60 bus his stash of Nuts blew up out of both sides of the windshied defrost vents.

Good to here you are syill around buddy

I think Big Al knows more about "stale air" in a different "scents" after all he drives a Krusty with escape hatches on both ends.

Lyndon: I took the ST-4 to a VW car show (hoping to meet some air-cooled people) and found a nicely restored/upgraded bug that had the mufflers installed here.http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/attachment.php?attachmentid=63002&stc=1&d=1344601460

This yellow bug had baby seats and was driven to the show he said he put this type of kit in to get rid on noise. Also this past monday, I had an opportunity to go see kirk so I went back down to Iowa to watch the beans grow and noticed that machine 267 (mine is 268) had the fresh air heater boxes with the nozzle facing forward. this looks like a great idea as it creates room for a longer heat tube more length equals less noise.

As far as the snow trac at a car show, I was hoping to meet people with air cooled ideas, and wound up meeting one guy that had a Bombardier coach, and another person who had a Sno trac when he was in AK back in the day. The show people refered to it as "the tank" and awarded it second place in the exhibition class. "driving around the parking ramp was fun and Yes Mr. Couchloafer they do slide around nicely on concrete"

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/attachment.php?attachmentid=63004&stc=1&d=1344602759


I lost the first place award for exhibition class to a Chip Foose prepared Nissan with crazy stupid modifications. The ST did however beat a gagle of Nicely prepared Euro and and asian and american Autos. turns out the Westminskar logo looks a lot like a VW emblem.......

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/attachment.php?attachmentid=63007&stc=1&d=1344603439

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/attachment.php?attachmentid=63008&stc=1&d=1344603439

Here is a couple of pics of how I did mine, I used a piece of sheet metal and pop rivets. The hole where the hose is connected was already there, That is where air is dumped when heat is not on, to keep cool air passing through heater box. I will be adding a dump port/hose to underneath vehicle. If I remember correctly I had bend control lever over to have heater flap work in opposite direction hope this helps.

Very helpful, thanks.
Never gave any thought to the waste or dump circuit.
I am going to make a set from some car Heater boxes when I do I will give thought to the Dump circuit.

The chrome makes it look like a second hose ..

i like terrys solution if i wer to do it again thats how i would do it

Re: snow trac heater box (new to me VT machine SN 336)

Well I tried to do what terry did, and that did not work.

I had the motor in and I could not make the turn to get on the studs and behind the Variator tower. (suppose I could have pulled the studs)
My excuse:
I was rushing to "get the machine in a parade" I failed.
What I did.
I mocked up a variator and motor and then, cut the tops (just below the valves) . I only cut three sides. I tipped the valves to the outside and then welded up the notch. this was ok, But I again could not get them in without removing the shelf tin on the bottom of the motor.
attempt two:
I then cut the waste valve off and gutted the flapper out to use it as a cap. That worked well.
I cleaned the dead snake skins and mud wasp nests out of the ducting and wala HEAT.
do over:
On the next attempt I will just cap the heater box with a 2" outlet facing straight up. I am going to then run the heated air to a T and valve arrangement. I see that on the Stock car the Mufflers are between the body of the car and the valves. I am going to use those OEM mufflers below the shives and parallel to the fenders.
Why?
The heat tubes my Master were crossed and that was nice to be able to apply heat as needed to the carb, right or left defrost or left or right floor.
My feet get uncomfortably warm.

Ill get some photos of my crappy attempt. as I move forward.

I will include the air horn as well because I intend to keep the oil cooler.
The front tin will be last.

the modds I made for mountain home lodge seem to be pretty good plenty of heat and the control valves work too