Auto-Start back-up Home Generator?

Melensdad · Aug 28, 2010

Anyone have one of the automatic start generators that kick on when there is a power outage?

I've currently got a manual start set up that runs on Natural Gas and am looking to switch to an auto-start unit. Anyone have experience with these?

loboloco · Aug 28, 2010

Had one on our poultry farm. If run occasionally, they work when you need them. Not run occasionally, won;t run when you need it. Real nice to have that auto system, though. Especially at 2 in the morning in a torrential rain storm.

rlk · Aug 28, 2010

Melensdad said:
Anyone have one of the automatic start generators that kick on when there is a power outage?

I've currently got a manual start set up that runs on Natural Gas and am looking to switch to an auto-start unit. Anyone have experience with these?

I had a 16 KW Generac installed in 2006. Fortunately we have not needed it much. It comes on once a week to exercise itself, then just hangs around waiting for a power outage. Once the power fails, it takes about a minute for the generator to come on and get up to speed, then take over providing the power to the house. When the electric from the power company comes back, the generator switches itself off with no interruption to the electric power.

The generator has its own propane tank. Some people want it connected to the house propane, but I chose to have a separate tank. Since the generator uses very little propane, I do have to pay rent on the tank.

I have backup UPS systems on my PCs and TVs that will last longer than it takes the generator to cycle on, so I don't loose anything important while waiting for the generator.

When I bought mine, there not been many hurricanes the past year, so there was a glut of generators on the market, consequently, the prices were right. I bought mine in Michigan but got free shipping to NC.

Ziller Electric 2475 Brown Road Orion, MI 48359 http://zillerelectric.com/

I see they have 17 KW now.

I also purchased the transfer switch and had everything installed by an electrician. My generator is large enough to run the entire house and that made for a simple installation.

If you have questions, let me know.

Bob

SShepherd · Aug 28, 2010

noise? I had a 15kw gas that was loud as hell

Do you have a hard time keeping "critters" out of it's cabinet? spiders, mice etc. mice killed mine, ate up a buncha wires-now I have a 25hp v-twin electric start gokart motor with no gokart :glare:

can you switch it to run other fuels?

finally..............how bad did it hurt (to pay for)

Melensdad · Aug 28, 2010

A few more details about mine, its pushing 10 years old, has always started without any problems, still performs flawlessly. But its not automatic, its also currently located inside my garage. So if I wanted to get an auto-switch for it I'd have to move it outside the garage wall (no big problem there) and build an enclosure for it. As its already a decade old I'm not sure its worth the cost to build a weatherproof housing, etc etc.

Currently when I run the generator I have to open a door and exhaust the fumes outside. When I positioned the generator in its current location I planned to open the door for exhaust and that has worked for me, but the downside is that the generator cannot run if nobody is home because it requires having the doors open. It also means that it is not possible to have an auto-start system installed because if it came on at night while we slept it would probably kill us from carbon monoxide.

So to go to an auto start system I need to located it on the opposite side of the wall in my back yard. Given that, it just seems to make sense to look at new unit and sell this one to recover some of the costs. New units seem to run $4500 to $5500. Hookup should not be too big of an expense given that I already have much of what I need installed.

I see that Cummins/Onan now makes one => http://www.cumminsonan.com/residential/products/homestandby/compare?gensetId=103&detail=true
It is not only automatic, but it can be connected to the internet and I can check the diagnostics. It even sends email if there are problems.

Generac also makes a nice model with an aluminum enclosure that looks pretty good and would suit my needs => http://zillerelectric.com/Generac_Air_Cooled/Guardian_Generator_5506.html

Melensdad · Aug 28, 2010

A few more details about mine, its pushing 10 years old, has always started without any problems, still performs flawlessly. But its not automatic, its also currently located inside my garage. So if I wanted to get an auto-switch for it I'd have to move it outside the garage wall (no big problem there) and build an enclosure for it. As its already a decade old I'm not sure its worth the cost to build a weatherproof housing, etc etc.

Currently when I run the generator I have to open a door and exhaust the fumes outside. When I positioned the generator in its current location I planned to open the door for exhaust and that has worked for me, but the downside is that the generator cannot run if nobody is home because it requires having the doors open. It also means that it is not possible to have an auto-start system installed because if it came on at night while we slept it would probably kill us from carbon monoxide.

So to go to an auto start system I need to located it on the opposite side of the wall in my back yard. Given that, it just seems to make sense to look at new unit and sell this one to recover some of the costs. New units seem to run $4500 to $5500. Hookup should not be too big of an expense given that I already have much of what I need installed.

I see that Cummins/Onan now makes one => http://www.cumminsonan.com/residential/products/homestandby/compare?gensetId=103&detail=true
It is not only automatic, but it can be connected to the internet and I can check the diagnostics. It even sends email if there are problems.

Generac also makes a nice model with an aluminum enclosure that looks pretty good and would suit my needs => http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect...generac 5875&gclid=CO_Vz46h3KMCFRD75wodshzOZA

rlk · Aug 28, 2010

SShepherd said:
noise? I had a 15kw gas that was loud as hell

Do you have a hard time keeping "critters" out of it's cabinet? spiders, mice etc. mice killed mine, ate up a buncha wires-now I have a 25hp v-twin electric start gokart motor with no gokart

can you switch it to run other fuels?

finally..............how bad did it hurt (to pay for)

Mine is not too loud. Since it is on the side of the house where the bedrooms are, I can hear it at night, but it is not so loud that I can't sleep because of it. If noise is a problem, get a liquid cooled one. They are much quieter.

Mice, spiders, etc. have not been a problem with mine.

Don't know if you can switch to other fuels or not. Propane is what I wanted since it does not go bad.

You can see the current prices at http://zillerelectric.com/ Of course they can't tell you what your installation cost would be as each house is probably different. I would figure at least $500 for an electrician though.

Bob

Snowtrac Nome · Aug 29, 2010

Melensdad said:
A few more details about mine, its pushing 10 years old, has always started without any problems, still performs flawlessly. But its not automatic, its also currently located inside my garage. So if I wanted to get an auto-switch for it I'd have to move it outside the garage wall (no big problem there) and build an enclosure for it. As its already a decade old I'm not sure its worth the cost to build a weatherproof housing, etc etc.

Currently when I run the generator I have to open a door and exhaust the fumes outside. When I positioned the generator in its current location I planned to open the door for exhaust and that has worked for me, but the downside is that the generator cannot run if nobody is home because it requires having the doors open. It also means that it is not possible to have an auto-start system installed because if it came on at night while we slept it would probably kill us from carbon monoxide.

So to go to an auto start system I need to located it on the opposite side of the wall in my back yard. Given that, it just seems to make sense to look at new unit and sell this one to recover some of the costs. New units seem to run $4500 to $5500. Hookup should not be too big of an expense given that I already have much of what I need installed.

I see that Cummins/Onan now makes one => http://www.cumminsonan.com/residential/products/homestandby/compare?gensetId=103&detail=true
It is not only automatic, but it can be connected to the internet and I can check the diagnostics. It even sends email if there are problems.

Generac also makes a nice model with an aluminum enclosure that looks pretty good and would suit my needs => http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect...generac 5875&gclid=CO_Vz46h3KMCFRD75wodshzOZA

Ok Bob by trade i'm a generator mechanic also worked at an rv place where my tallents were put to use the old 5 and 10 k onans that the military used were hard to beat there are still some running in iraq even though they are now so old that they are hard to get parts for the new tqg series generators the military bought are liquid cooled lister petter diesels and onan gen sets they come in an accustic cabanent and produce about 65 db at full load 6 inches from the set at the rv place we ran both onan and genrac based on the problems encountered the gen rac is a pos. onans costed more but we never had a problem and they ran quieter.

Dargo · Aug 29, 2010

rlk said:
I had a 16 KW Generac installed in 2006. Fortunately we have not needed it much. It comes on once a week to exercise itself, then just hangs around waiting for a power outage. Once the power fails, it takes about a minute for the generator to come on and get up to speed, then take over providing the power to the house. When the electric from the power company comes back, the generator switches itself off with no interruption to the electric power.

The generator has its own propane tank. Some people want it connected to the house propane, but I chose to have a separate tank. Since the generator uses very little propane, I do have to pay rent on the tank.

I have backup UPS systems on my PCs and TVs that will last longer than it takes the generator to cycle on, so I don't loose anything important while waiting for the generator.

When I bought mine, there not been many hurricanes the past year, so there was a glut of generators on the market, consequently, the prices were right. I bought mine in Michigan but got free shipping to NC.

Ziller Electric 2475 Brown Road Orion, MI 48359 http://zillerelectric.com/

I see they have 17 KW now.

I also purchased the transfer switch and had everything installed by an electrician. My generator is large enough to run the entire house and that made for a simple installation.

If you have questions, let me know.

Bob

Wow, that seems like an extremely small generator for a whole house unit. I had a certified electrician "size" what I'd need and a 25kw would be the absolute minmum and most likely would not work. If I want to be able to use anything in my barns I need to jump up to at least 40kw. Just for the house and poolhouse 30kw was the recommended size; not too large by any means, but not so small that it would lose voltage and not be able to keep up.

I have a 15k portable unit and I really have to watch watch what I turn on. Any A/C is out of the question with it. I'm really torn on what fuel. My coach has a 10kw Onan diesel with a Kubota engin in it and it seems properly sized for my motor coach, but would be way small for a home. In my area I'm concerned about really long term outages due to an earthquake. A NG generator would be totally worthless then since they shut off NG supplies to prevent fires. I don't want a huge propane tank in my yard either. I supose that leaves diesel for me since I have 500 gallons on hand most of the time.

Melensdad · Aug 29, 2010

Dargo, I'm sort of in the same situation as you, my 12K unit will run my house EXCEPT the AC. I don't even think of sending power out to the workshop, the pool, hot tub, etc. So mine is hooked up to what we call a "critical" circuits board that powers about 75% of the house. Had I to do it over again I'd power more of the house because my generator is large enough for running more than I have specified as critical.

As my generator is roughly a decade old I'm giving some serious thoughts now to an upgrade to an auto start system, one that would be large enough to power the bulk of the house . . . but still no thought of powering a pool pump, hot tub, workshop, welder, etc etc etc. Just the house. My house is reasonably efficient. 20K should do that for me.

I am not particularly concerned about earthquakes, never had one in my nearly 50 years of life. There have been some that we've felt that were 100+ miles away. So I'm comfortable with running on Natural Gas. However most of the NG units will pretty easily switch to Propane by swapping out a regulator, so if you want to have a spare regulator and a modest size propane tank, you could theoretically run on NG for a typical outage, and with an hour or two of work, you could switch it to run on Propane if you did suffer an earthquake that knocked out your NG.

Dargo said:
I supose that leaves diesel for me since I have 500 gallons on hand most of the time.

BTW, can you post a photo of your diesel tank? (ditto others who have diesel storage) I'm curious to see what people are using for long term diesel storage.

Dargo · Aug 29, 2010

I'm still on a tiny island in the middle of the ocean with the pleasure of having walked on coral yesterday when going out to an old plane wreck underwater. The diesel generator (for the entire island) is up right now but it's storming. Here is our last plane hop to this island [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zitZPXbnfn0"]Luxor flight on big plane[/ame]

EastTexFrank · Aug 29, 2010

Bob, let us know what your final decision will be. I'm lazy and you always do a lot of research before making making your final purchase.

I've been toying with the idea of installing a whole house, NG back-up generator for some time. Fortunately or unfortunately, I can't run the A/C or well pump off a normal generator because they are both 3-phase. It does simplify things though because you don't have to account for the two power hogs. I was leaning towards a liquid cooled unit but I don't think that the length or frequency of our outages justifies the additional cost so I'll probably end up with an air cooled one around 20kW.

So, let us know what your final decision is and the logic behind it because I'm still dithering but the little gas one I use now has got to go!!!!. :neutral:

Snowtrac Nome · Aug 29, 2010

if you guys are going to burn diesel yoou want a 60 to 80%load on it 50% or less and it's going to wet stack and you won't get the most power for your money

bczoom · Aug 29, 2010

I've been avoiding the auto-start generators.

Since I don't have NG, I wouldn't want to deplete my fuel by the thing running all the time.

I have a few generators. I have a 15KW Onan but like everyone else, it won't run the A/C. I actually went out and got a 7500W so I don't burn the mass amounts of fuel the 15KW uses. That will run the freezers, fridges, lights... that I need.

Although not connected to the house, I have a 30KW 3-phase Onan sitting on a trailer. It's got a Ford 6-cyl on it and it doesn't seem to be too bad on burning fuel.

For bulk storage, I use IBC totes for diesel and kero.

Snowtrac Nome · Aug 29, 2010

also for those of you running 3 phaze yooour single phase imput is 240 vac with a 120 being picked up off of netral if you go too 3 phase you have to put in a single phase transformer because of 3 phase loss making your power 110/208 vac all your single phase motors will suffer with low voltage

SShepherd · Aug 29, 2010

does anyone have knowledge of tri-fuel generators? I'm always a proponent of double and triple redundant systems :wink:

I wouldn't mind hooking it up no the NG line, and have a backup tank I can switch to.

EastTexFrank · Aug 30, 2010

dds said:
also for those of you running 3 phaze yooour single phase imput is 240 vac with a 120 being picked up off of netral if you go too 3 phase you have to put in a single phase transformer because of 3 phase loss making your power 110/208 vac all your single phase motors will suffer with low voltage

I'm thinking of going the opposite way. I have both single phase and 3-phase coming into the house. Don't ask me why, it's just there. Actually, I talked to the guy who built the house and he said that at the time he built that it was an option and he said, "Why the hell not, I might need it at some time!!!". We're maybe one of four houses in the county that still has 3-phase and the power company badly wants to take it away from us but they don't want to replace the a/c and well pump so we'll have it for a while yet. The 3-phase comes in and has it's own breaker box in the shop. I was considering getting a 3-phase converter and tying a generator into that to power the a/c and well pump and have a 20kW standby on the house.

All I need to do is win the lottery.

Melensdad · Aug 30, 2010

SShepherd said:
does anyone have knowledge of tri-fuel generators? I'm always a proponent of double and triple redundant systems

I wouldn't mind hooking it up no the NG line, and have a backup tank I can switch to.

My current generator is actually a Tri-Fuel system. Its a 12K unit. Mine does not require any hardware change to switch fuels. It has a 5 gallon gasoline tank on top and the side has a NG/Propane pressure regulator and a inlet. I have the NG line piped right into the side of the generator. The generator is rated for 12K on gasoline, it puts out less power on propane and even less on NG. I figure I get about 9600 to 10K out of my 12K unit by running it on NG.

To switch from Gas to NG its pretty darn simple, I've done it many times. Simply turn the butterfly valve to shut off the gas line, then open the NG valve to turn on the NG. The engine may sputter a bit during the transition but it works, of course you can also let it run out of gas and then flip over to NG and restart it.

It runs cleaner on NG than Gas, requires fewer oil changes.

Other than that its basically a lawn tractor engine running a gen-set.

bczoom said:
I've been avoiding the auto-start generators.

For bulk storage, I use IBC totes for diesel and kero.

Brian, how do you get the diesel out of the IBC totes? Do you have a pump system? PICTURES PLEASE.

bczoom · Aug 30, 2010

The only picture I have on my PC right now shows one I have setup for water. This tank is sitting in the bed of the RTV. For the record, I do NOT fill the entire tote when it's in the RTV as it's a 400 gallon. I only put about 100-125 gallons in at a time due to weight and the fact it's not baffled so it really gets the RTV rocking when it's sloshing around.

For now, my setups are all gravity feed (and I just use it to fill 5-gallon cans) but I have seen pumps on others and I'll probably switch to use one. They are sitting on an integrated pallet. I don't keep mine elevated but I think I'll start. When they get low enough were they won't gravity feed, I just lift it with the tractor or fork truck.

At the bottom of the tank is a valve and a banjo quick disconnect for whatever you want to connect to the tank. I have different connectors and different hose sizes based on what's in the tank (water, diesel...). BTW, you can get the banjo connectors at places like TSC. I then just step it down to whatever I need for the application.

Melensdad · Aug 30, 2010

I'd like to figure out a system to use an electric pump to pump diesel out of a tank into the tractor and my Jetta. Those storage tanks you have seem to be the most economical choices that I can find in my area and I'd like to use something like those to store about 500 gallons.

Big Dog · Aug 30, 2010

EastTexFrank said:
Bob, let us know what your final decision will be. I'm lazy and you always do a lot of research before making making your final purchase.

I've been toying with the idea of installing a whole house, NG back-up generator for some time. Fortunately or unfortunately, I can't run the A/C or well pump off a normal generator because they are both 3-phase. It does simplify things though because you don't have to account for the two power hogs. I was leaning towards a liquid cooled unit but I don't think that the length or frequency of our outages justifies the additional cost so I'll probably end up with an air cooled one around 20kW.

So, let us know what your final decision is and the logic behind it because I'm still dithering but the little gas one I use now has got to go!!!!.

Same here ............. Someone just tell me which NG generator to get in the 25 - 35KW range. No need for 3 phase. I have free gas so that is the only fuel option for me. The generator will be next Summer's project, I'll make due with the 2 gasser's I have now.

bczoom said:
I've been avoiding the auto-start generators.

Since I don't have NG, I wouldn't want to deplete my fuel by the thing running all the time.

I have a few generators. I have a 15KW Onan but like everyone else, it won't run the A/C. I actually went out and got a 7500W so I don't burn the mass amounts of fuel the 15KW uses. That will run the freezers, fridges, lights... that I need.

Although not connected to the house, I have a 30KW 3-phase Onan sitting on a trailer. It's got a Ford 6-cyl on it and it doesn't seem to be too bad on burning fuel.

For bulk storage, I use IBC totes for diesel and kero.

Brian ... where you getting them totes?

bczoom · Aug 30, 2010

Bob,

I've seen some pumps mounted directly on the tank but I'm thinking of getting an external pump.

Something like [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Tuthill-Wall-Mount-Diesel-Transfer/dp/B00132AMA2"]THIS[/ame]. Here's a pic.

I would mount that then connect to the bottom bung of whatever tank I want to draw from. When that tank goes empty, just close the bottom valve on the tank and connect to another tank.

Big Dog · Aug 30, 2010

bczoom said:
Bob,

I've seen some pumps mounted directly on the tank but I'm thinking of getting an external pump.

Something like THIS. Here's a pic.

I would mount that then connect to the bottom bung of whatever tank I want to draw from. When that tank goes empty, just close the bottom valve on the tank and connect to another tank.

Man you messed up by selling that tank bro ........... I heard the guy that bought it is still gloating about that deal .............. :whistling:

bczoom · Aug 30, 2010

Big Dog said:
Man you messed up by selling that tank bro ........... I heard the guy that bought it is still gloating about that deal ........

Yea, well I got another 550 gallon, CHEAP! I mentioned in another thread that there's rust in it but it's not near as bad as I thought. It's just a little surface rust. They're coming today to fill it.

Melensdad · Aug 30, 2010

I notice that there are different types of transfer switches.

There is a "service entrance" transfer switch and there is an "automatic" transfer switch. Both seem to automatically switch on the generator, both seem to switch from utility power to generator power . . . and then back again when utility power is restored.

So what is the real or practical difference between these types of switches?

Automatic => Automatic Transfer Switch - Asco Transfer Switch

Service Entrace Rated => Automatic Transfer Switch - Asco Transfer Switch

Snowtrac Nome · Aug 30, 2010

bczoom said:
Bob,

I've seen some pumps mounted directly on the tank but I'm thinking of getting an external pump.

Something like THIS. Here's a pic.

I would mount that then connect to the bottom bung of whatever tank I want to draw from. When that tank goes empty, just close the bottom valve on the tank and connect to another tank.

don't draw off the bottom if you spring a leak you will have a big mess also you will have to havea valve on yoyr suction hose or dry break conections on your tank and hose so you don't make a mess when switching tanks

OhioTC18 · Aug 30, 2010

Melensdad said:
I notice that there are different types of transfer switches.

There is a "service entrance" transfer switch and there is an "automatic" transfer switch. Both seem to automatically switch on the generator, both seem to switch from utility power to generator power . . . and then back again when utility power is restored.

So what is the real or practical difference between these types of switches?

Bob,
The differences are code related. It can be complicated to explain but a main difference is in a Service Rated one, the neutral can be tied down to the cabinet and a place to connect a Grounding Electrode conductor. The Automatic one is really not designed to transfer the whole house ahead of the main service panel. The Service Rated one is. The Automatic switch was meant to transfer only selected loads served by an "emergency" panel. (There are no true emergency loads in a residential situation.)

Melensdad · Aug 30, 2010

Dargo said:
I had a certified electrician "size" what I'd need and a 25kw would be the absolute minmum and most likely would not work.

Brent I think some folks size generators to run EVERY LOAD as if they were all STARTING UP at the very same time. Certainly its possible that a well pump, the AC compressor(s), deep freeze, refrigerator, etc could all start simultaneously, which is a big draw, but its highly unlikely.

There are "smart" transfer switches now that will manage two AC units start ups they can be used to manage other large loads as well. They will help mitigate the highest demand load.

Generac Guardian RTSD100A3 - Generac Nexus Smart Switch™ - 100 Amp Automatic Transfer Switch (Service Entrance)

Snowtrac Nome · Aug 30, 2010

when installing a generator yoou need too be carfule and prioritize what yoou are going to run you have to have your load balanced on equal sides of the box if your load isn't balanced with in 10% you will get a bering failure or your gen set will jump like it's fueled off of mexican jumping beans the larger the generator the more critical this is

EastTexFrank · Aug 31, 2010

dds said:
when installing a generator yoou need too be carfule and prioritize what yoou are going to run you have to have your load balanced on equal sides of the box if your load isn't balanced with in 10% you will get a bering failure or your gen set will jump like it's fueled off of mexican jumping beans the larger the generator the more critical this is

Interesting Don. I've never heard anything like that before.

Auto-Start back-up Home Generator?

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator

Well-known member

Bronze Member

New member

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator

Bronze Member

member formerly known as dds

Like a bad penny...

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator

Like a bad penny...

Well-known member

member formerly known as dds

Super Moderator

Attachments

member formerly known as dds

New member

Well-known member

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator

Super Moderator

Attachments

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator

Large Member

Super Moderator

Large Member

Super Moderator

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator

member formerly known as dds

Gone But Not Forgotten

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator

member formerly known as dds

Well-known member