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What Rights Have You Lost?

Cityboy

Banned
Wiretapping and other activities that are being employed to hunt down and capture terrorists have been hotly debated since 9/11 and the inception of the Patriot Act. Some people are complaining of the rights they have lost. I've spent quite some time thinking about this alleged loss of rights, and what rights I may have lost in my own personal life.

Other than having to take my shoes off and having my laptop swabbed down at the airport for who-knows-why, I cannot think of one single "right" that has been taken away from me. Now, is it a right to not have to be screened before boarding a plane? Of course not.

So, here is the question for you FF members: What specific right have you actually lost since 9/11?

This is not a theoretical discussion.Think about your own day-to-day life and your constitutional rights; then name any rights you have actually, personally been deprived of.
 

joasis

New member
Loss of rights is a scare tactic of the liberal left...I haven't lost any rights I can think...some PRIVELEGES have been a little curtailed, but nothing I can't live with. I used to enjoy flying...I haven't kept my medical up since 9/11 because I choose not to participate...I don't cry and whine about the new rules...they are neccessary to protect our nation. I don't fly commercially since I don't like the extra scrutiny when boarding a plane, as a licensed and experienced pilot, it could be assumed I will scream "God is great" and try to take over the plane and fly into a building with it, even though I am not Arabic...terrorism comes in many shapes and nationalities. I don't make overseas calls, and if I did, I would EXPECT the call to be monitored....my country needs the security...if I check out material online about bomb making to perhaps kill some kids, then I would deserve the FBI pounding down the door to see what I am up to, BEFORE the fact, not after.

Anyone who wants to "handcuff" our nation and whine and cry about our loss of civil liberties, to me, is less then patriotic, less then American, and more about the seflish person, interested only in themselves, then the selfless shedding of blood by our troops, in this war and past wars, to protect and further the rights of those who wish to cry and complain and whine, never serving their nation, but serving their own selfish interests.
 

Cityboy

Banned
:confused2: This thread has been up for 14 hours. Has no one lost any rights after all the discussion on FF about it over the past year? :confused2:
 

DaveNay

Klaatu barada nikto
SUPER Site Supporter
Cityboy said:
:confused2: This thread has been up for 14 hours. Has no one lost any rights after all the discussion on FF about it over the past year? :confused2:
Those who believe they have lost rights will not be convinced otherwise by those who believe they have not.

Those who believe they have not lost any rights will not be convinced otherwise by those who believe they have.

Some topics just have a big sign on them:

CAUTION - RADIOACTIVE

DO NOT TOUCH!

 

HGM

New member
You know, I read this thread this morning and thought about a sarchastic reply(because I believe it is:horsepoop: )... I really couldnt think of anything to claim that I have lost..... The conspiracy theorists who are so offended by the wire tapping cant even use that as a reason because they know in their hearts that it doesnt apply to them.... I too thought it was interesting that no one replied though....
 

daedong

New member
Ask those who have been harassed unnecessarily just because they look Asia or Arabic

While in the strict sense of the word I many not have lost rights after all I look [FONT=&quot]Caucasian[/FONT].

I can no longer buy ammonium nitrate for my citrus without going through a load of crap to be licensed.

I might make a bomb

[FONT=&quot]But I can buy a tanker load of insecticide that I could drive into rivers. [/FONT]
 

Cityboy

Banned
DaveNay said:
Those who believe they have lost rights will not be convinced otherwise by those who believe they have not.

If you have actually lost rights, you should easily be able to quantify this loss.

DaveNay said:
Those who believe they have not lost any rights will not be convinced otherwise by those who believe they have.

Hey, I'm open to discussion on the subject. I just asked if anyone could name a right they have been deprived of.

This line should really read:

DaveNay said:
some posts just have a big sign on them:

Don't Reply! Cityboy just called bullshit on us and we have no evidence to the contrary!! :eek: :eek: :eek:


In other words, Dave, you cannot name a right you have lost, but you decline to admit it. Right? :D :D :D
 

HGM

New member
daedong said:
Ask those who have been harassed unnecessarily just because they look Asia or Arabic [/FONT]

HUH???????:confused2:
Are you suggesting that it is wrong question or search someone who fits the description of your enemy? I can tell you, if it were a white supremesist group trying to wipe out the musslim section of the United States, I for one would not have a problem being asked to go through special security to prove my saftey to others. Would I like it? no, but if it needs to be, I would deal with it, just like they should........ I have been pulled over and detained by the police simply because I was a white boy in a black neighborhood.. 1hr later they let us go... No harm, no foul, we were suspicious... I remember living in Saudi Arabia as a kid and having a "raid" of our complex, just because we were forigners in their country.. Basicly, they were checking to make sure we didnt have any contraband(alchohol or drugs), but guess what, we were guests in their country and complied and nothing happened to us.... Some folks need to get over it.. If it is truely a problem for those that look arabic, they should step up and put a stop to the terrorism rather than just quietly stand by and watch while it continues... Sorry, thats just silly comment, hopefully I missunderstood. and you arent suggesting that we monitor 90yr old grandmothers instead just to be "fair"..:pat: .
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
daedong said:
Ask those who have been harassed unnecessarily just because they look Asia or Arabic
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Vin, I travel a lot. I used to sport a full beard. My hair is dark brown, when it is long it curls. After 9/11 I was pulled out of every security line at every airport I flew out of for a little over a year, each time I was searched, patted down and had my bags searched. It stopped when I shaved.

However I don't consider that I lost any rights.
 

joasis

New member
I'm with you cityboy...still waiting. I have posted something similar on another board, and the liberals there could not give ONE example of a right lost to the Patriot Act...NOT ONE! But they still cry and while about the civil liberties stolen by President Bush....they can't even name in any order the liberties they take for granted..and the only one liberals are really concerned with is the 2nd ammendment....to tell us it is outdated and un-needed...go figure...thats the liberals for you.
 

Ricochet

New member
None. Besides, I have nothing to hide and feel this is a reasonable measure to protect all of us.

joasis said:
I'm with you cityboy...still waiting. I have posted something similar on another board, and the liberals there could not give ONE example of a right lost to the Patriot Act...NOT ONE! But they still cry and while about the civil liberties stolen by President Bush....they can't even name in any order the liberties they take for granted..and the only one liberals are really concerned with is the 2nd ammendment....to tell us it is outdated and un-needed...go figure...thats the liberals for you.
Yep, sounds about right...the libs are barking up the wrong tree as usual.
 

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dzalphakilo

Banned
joasis said:
Anyone who wants to "handcuff" our nation and whine and cry about our loss of civil liberties, to me, is less then patriotic, less then American, and more about the seflish person, interested only in themselves, then the selfless shedding of blood by our troops, in this war and past wars, to protect and further the rights of those who wish to cry and complain and whine, never serving their nation

I find it amazing that if someone does not think like yourself, you consider them less patriotic than yourself.

To answer CB's question, as far as I know, I haven't lost any of my "rights" since 9/11/06.

That being said, who here UNDERSTANDS all of the "rules" of the Patriot act and has read and understands ALL of it's "rules and implications"? (be warned, its some LONG reading).

I find it amazing that no one has brought up David Passero, particulalry those who believe what our goverment is doing is "right" over in the sandbox. He was tried and convicted due to the Patriot act working as a "subcontractor" for the CIA.

We all assume that those in "power" in our goverment do what's best for it's citizens. Call me less than patriotic if you will, but I don't believe that is always the case.

There is a "fine line" between the personal liberties we all take for granted, and those liberties that we may lose for the "better protection" of our country. I sincerely hope though that through "finding" a better means of protecting ourselves as a country, we don't lose those "checks and balances" which ensures all of us due process through the legal system, which I believe is the "bigger" issue (and to some extent, it does seem as a whole, at times our country as learned from its past, which I find reassuring).

Do you realize that if you store combustible materials in your home that could be used to make a "device" that could explode to cause death, destruction and damage, you could be tried under the Patriot act? Don't laugh, it has happened here in N.C. D.A couldn't make his case through the "standard legal system" due to the evidence he had, so he "invoked" the Patriot act. And although the case was "thrown out" after a year or so through the legal system, what scares me personally is that he could even go that route in the first place through the Patriot act (what was outright laughable was that he could lable these men he was going after as "terrorists", being quoted as so, and saying it with a straight face).

For all of those who reload, THINK about that for a minute. Those of us who own guns, THINK about that as well. Thats what scares me.
 
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Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
DZ, you make some excellent points. I'd wager a small amount that many of us on this forum have "bomb making supplies" in our homes. Some generic fertilizer for our large gardens, some diesel fuel for our tractors, some buckshot for our shot shell presses, a pair of walkie-talkies and you have the basis for a very destructive remotely detonated bomb. Substitute a battery operated digital clock and you have the basics for a timer controlled bomb.

Now think back to the proposed, but unpassed version of the Clinton Assault Weapon Ban. Many of us with guns know that was a gun grab bill and we got all upset about that one. It contained clauses that would have included guns like a Remington 870 pump gun as an assault weapon because it was 'capable of accepting' and extended ammunition tube that would allow the gun to hold 10 rounds of 2 3/4" shells. There were literally DOZENS of other flaws to that gun grabbing proposal and we are thankful that we don't live under that proposal. Were those of us who opposed this bill less patriotic because we opposed the government?

There are parts of the Patriot Act that should give law abiding citizens a pause for concern. That doesn't mean they are less partiotic.
 

joasis

New member
dzalphakilo said:
I find it amazing that if someone does not think like yourself, you consider them less patriotic than yourself.

To answer CB's question, as far as I know, I haven't lost any of my "rights" since 9/11/06.

That being said, who here UNDERSTANDS all of the "rules" of the Patriot act and has read and understands ALL of it's "rules and implications"? (be warned, its some LONG reading).

Cindy Sheehan is a fine example of someone who is less then patriotic...I am glad I served in a small measure to protect her right to cry and whine on national TV about the loss of her son and condemn the President on behalf of the liberal left....it is a tragedy...and loss of life is, but it is a time of war, and deaths will occur..the only sure way to avoid combat death is not be in the military, and then of course, there are those who suggest they never inteded to serve in a war zone, they enlisted so they could go to college and "defend" the good old US of A. Never intended to shed their blood on a foriegn land....my Grandparents did not go and whine and cry and protest on national TV when I they lost their only son in Vietnam, a dirty chapter in American history....but it is all the rage today for people to call the President a criminal, compare him to Hitler, or desribe the war as illegal....without really having a clue as to what they are talking about...just the hype of saying it.

The liberal media presents a side of America that is less then patriotic....get my point?

I believe strongly in our right of free speech, free press, pray as we want....yes, every part of the bill of rights....if you don't agree with how things are going in our country, exersize your rights at the polling place, vote for change, write your legislators....but don't cry on the street corners and bad mouth the troops, president, government, our the citizens of our nation....I really think people who cannot get their way (Michael Moore types) because they still don't get it that a majority of Americans do not identify with their liberal, big brother mentality, would best serve our nation by leaving and finding a paridise that will cater to their whims of what a perfect nation will be. :my2cents:
 

dzalphakilo

Banned
joasis said:
Cindy Sheehan is a fine example of someone who is less then patriotic

Keep in mind, that is only YOUR opinion, not fact. Although I may not agree with Mrs. Sheehan, I think I at least have an understanding of her motivation, and although I may not agree with her actions, they are from what I believe, within her rights.

You bring up a point of "what is patriotism", and although that may be for another debate, my opinion is that it has very little to do with the Patriot act.
 
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Cityboy

Banned
Hey guys - My purpose in posting this thread was not to challenge anyones patriotism. Let's look at our own personal lives and see if we have actually been denied any of our constitutional rights. If you have been denied any rights, lets discuss it.
 

mtntopper

Back On Track
SUPER Site Supporter
Personally I have noticed any major problems.

I do have two friends that store and can purchase more than 2500 gallons of propane at a time. They have this capacity since the refuel truck cannot get to their remote location in the winter. They now have special forms to fill out to purchase and store this or more propane on their property. They say it is such a hassle they only buy 2400 gallons at a time to lessen the paper work. According to the local delivery driver, the propane supplier must also do certain extra paperwork anytime he delivers to a customer that stores more than 2500 gallons.

It is a small price to pay to have more security to try and prevent another 9/11 in my opinion. I don't believe that we are as impacted by the laws as we might be under a different type of government or a more liberal administration.:myopinion: But it could all change overnite!!!!!
 

dzalphakilo

Banned
mtntopper said:
It is a small price to pay to have more security to try and prevent another 9/11 in my opinion. I don't believe that we are as impacted by the laws as we might be under a different type of government or a more liberal administration. But it could all change overnite!!!!!

I agree 120%. That said, with the Patriot act in effect, "interpretations" and enforcement of said laws CAN be viewed differently depending on the administration in "power" (not only by the presidency, but also by local officals). THAT is why we, as citizens, need to be very careful about and be diligent about the people governing us.

The fact is I think no one here would mind having to do more paperwork or "jump through more hoops" to have a tighter security to "guard" our country, the question is how far will we need to go.
 

DingoTango

New member
joasis said:
Cindy Sheehan is a fine example of someone who is less then patriotic...I am glad I served in a small measure to protect her right to cry and whine on national TV about the loss of her son and condemn the President on behalf of the liberal left....
The liberal media presents a side of America that is less then patriotic....

...don't cry on the street corners and bad mouth the troops, president, government, our the citizens of our nation....I really think people who cannot get their way (Michael Moore types) because they still don't get it that a majority of Americans do not identify with their liberal, big brother mentality, would best serve our nation by leaving and finding a paridise that will cater to their whims of what a perfect nation will be. :my2cents:
Wow... you must have a PhD in Jingoism. First, why do right-wing-talk-show-parroting people always use the redundancy "the liberal left" instead of just "the left"? Oh well, not important, it just adds to the appearance of emotional arguments intended to stir up hostility rather than thoughtful contemplation.

Also, your characterization of the entire "liberal left" as being a single-minded big-brother-worshipping bunch of unpatriotic crybabies, that's simply idiotic and shows that you haven't listened to very many opinions aside from those mouthed over and over by Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and all the other clones dominating the popular talk show circuit. I'm totally anti-Big Brother, I'm pro-gun rights, and I'm way to the left of most Democrats on most issues. Confused? Looking for a label for me? Maybe the "Looney Left" would work.

I consider myself a socialistic libertarian. Kind of a contradiction in terms, but what it means that I believe in the ideals and goals of Socialism but I believe in the day-to-day methods and ideals of libertarian and anarchistic philosophies. This puts me at odds with every high-level politician in the USA, so it's kind of painful to vote. But I certainly would never vote for a Republican because that party is completely OWNED by corporate interests and all the flag-waving and fear-mongering that you use to try to convince me that liberals are unpatriotic is rather unconvincing. You've bought into the mindrot that is spoon fed to you every day by the government. And you say you don't like Big Brother? That's who you're taking all your cues from.

As for the "liberal media" cliche, wow..... it's just amazing to me that anyone actually believes that! The only thing liberal about mass media is that a majority of reporters vote for Democrats. But the majority of owners and editors vote Republican. The fact that some news stories have information you don't like doesn't make them wrong. Try studying the facts behind each story instead of just saying "It's all the liberal media" and smugly wrapping yourself in the flag while comforting yourself that everything you believe is the Truth and everyone who disagrees is underserving to live in America.

And no, I don't think I've lost any of my individual rights, but I haven't read the Patriot Act and neither have most of our legislators. Nice name for it, eh? It's called Marketing. Package your product with a nifty name that makes it impossible for anyone to vote against it without catching hell from simpletons who don't bother to learn what's inside the package. I personally don't know and don't have an opinion about it, from what I hear it's really long and complicated and thus I'm unqualified to judge its merits.
 

BoneheadNW

New member
DingoTango said:
Wow... you must have a PhD in Jingoism. First, why do right-wing-talk-show-parroting people always use the redundancy "the liberal left" instead of just "the left"? Oh well, not important, it just adds to the appearance of emotional arguments intended to stir up hostility rather than thoughtful contemplation.

Also, your characterization of the entire "liberal left" as being a single-minded big-brother-worshipping bunch of unpatriotic crybabies, that's simply idiotic and shows that you haven't listened to very many opinions aside from those mouthed over and over by Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and all the other clones dominating the popular talk show circuit. I'm totally anti-Big Brother, I'm pro-gun rights, and I'm way to the left of most Democrats on most issues. Confused? Looking for a label for me? Maybe the "Looney Left" would work.

I consider myself a socialistic libertarian. Kind of a contradiction in terms, but what it means that I believe in the ideals and goals of Socialism but I believe in the day-to-day methods and ideals of libertarian and anarchistic philosophies. This puts me at odds with every high-level politician in the USA, so it's kind of painful to vote. But I certainly would never vote for a Republican because that party is completely OWNED by corporate interests and all the flag-waving and fear-mongering that you use to try to convince me that liberals are unpatriotic is rather unconvincing. You've bought into the mindrot that is spoon fed to you every day by the government. And you say you don't like Big Brother? That's who you're taking all your cues from.

As for the "liberal media" cliche, wow..... it's just amazing to me that anyone actually believes that! The only thing liberal about mass media is that a majority of reporters vote for Democrats. But the majority of owners and editors vote Republican. The fact that some news stories have information you don't like doesn't make them wrong. Try studying the facts behind each story instead of just saying "It's all the liberal media" and smugly wrapping yourself in the flag while comforting yourself that everything you believe is the Truth and everyone who disagrees is underserving to live in America.

And no, I don't think I've lost any of my individual rights, but I haven't read the Patriot Act and neither have most of our legislators. Nice name for it, eh? It's called Marketing. Package your product with a nifty name that makes it impossible for anyone to vote against it without catching hell from simpletons who don't bother to learn what's inside the package. I personally don't know and don't have an opinion about it, from what I hear it's really long and complicated and thus I'm unqualified to judge its merits.
Hey, I like this guy! :cool2: Dingo, step up to the bar. What are you drinking? The first round is on me.:burp:
Bonehead
 

joasis

New member
DingoTango said:
Wow... you must have a PhD in Jingoism. First, why do right-wing-talk-show-parroting people always use the redundancy "the liberal left" instead of just "the left"? Oh well, not important, it just adds to the appearance of emotional arguments intended to stir up hostility rather than thoughtful contemplation.

My point to the liberal left, is they are the ones we hear about, the ones who try to force their opinions, and create the most noise. Left and right tend to be less noisy, in my opinion. There is nothing, I repeat, nothing wrong with differing political viewpoints, that is what makes our nation great. I am entitled to my opinion, as you are to yours. My opinion is: If you whine and cry and bitch about our nation, and constantly complain how bad we are..then leave...don't let the door hit you where the Good Lord split you. Also, your characterization of the entire "liberal left" as being a single-minded big-brother-worshipping bunch of unpatriotic crybabies, that's simply idiotic and shows that you haven't listened to very many opinions aside from those mouthed over and over by Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and all the other clones dominating the popular talk show circuit. I'm totally anti-Big Brother, I'm pro-gun rights, and I'm way to the left of most Democrats on most issues. Confused? Looking for a label for me? Maybe the "Looney Left" would work. [I]I used to identify with the Democratic party, and generally the left side of polotics.....that changed over the last several years. A liberal arts education only moved me further to the conservative side.[/I]
I consider myself a socialistic libertarian. Kind of a contradiction in terms, but what it means that I believe in the ideals and goals of Socialism but I believe in the day-to-day methods and ideals of libertarian and anarchistic philosophies. This puts me at odds with every high-level politician in the USA, so it's kind of painful to vote. But I certainly would never vote for a Republican because that party is completely OWNED by corporate interests and all the flag-waving and fear-mongering that you use to try to convince me that liberals are unpatriotic is rather unconvincing. You've bought into the mindrot that is spoon fed to you every day by the government. And you say you don't like Big Brother? That's who you're taking all your cues from.

If you really understood the party idealogy, you might understand why some choose one party over another. I identify with ideas from both parties, and I do not vote straight ticket...I vote for the candidate who I feel will best serve...and yes, I have voted for liberals. I do not take cues from anyone...again, these are my opinions, as you have yours, and I am not trying to influence others.

As for the "liberal media" cliche, wow..... it's just amazing to me that anyone actually believes that! The only thing liberal about mass media is that a majority of reporters vote for Democrats. But the majority of owners and editors vote Republican. Ok, I have to ask...you write very intelligently...so you have an education...so where is the evidence or empirical data you reference to validate these statements with? Pull it out of you ass? The fact that some news stories have information you don't like doesn't make them wrong. Try studying the facts behind each story instead of just saying "It's all the liberal media" and smugly wrapping yourself in the flag while comforting yourself that everything you believe is the Truth and everyone who disagrees is underserving to live in America. I actually try to stay informed of most sides of news stories...and there again..I can quote examples, but everyone knows....I suppose in your humble opinion, the growing conservative audience in talk radio (which I rarely listen to) is made up of conservative, simple minded idiots? What happened to the left's attempt of equal time with Air America? No audience? Why?
And no, I don't think I've lost any of my individual rights, but I haven't read the Patriot Act and neither have most of our legislators. Nice name for it, eh? It's called Marketing. Package your product with a nifty name that makes it impossible for anyone to vote against it without catching hell from simpletons who don't bother to learn what's inside the package. I personally don't know and don't have an opinion about it, from what I hear it's really long and complicated and thus I'm unqualified to judge its merits.

Sounds to me like you are as unqualified to judge other's opinions as well...remember, this is only a forum. By the way, what have you done in the service of our nation that protects your freedoms?
 

HGM

New member
DingoTango said:
Wow... you must have a PhD in Jingoism. First, why do right-wing-talk-show-parroting people always use the redundancy "the liberal left" instead of just "the left"? Oh well, not important, it just adds to the appearance of emotional arguments intended to stir up hostility rather than thoughtful contemplation.

Also, your characterization of the entire "liberal left" as being a single-minded big-brother-worshipping bunch of unpatriotic crybabies, that's simply idiotic and shows that you haven't listened to very many opinions aside from those mouthed over and over by Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and all the other clones dominating the popular talk show circuit. I'm totally anti-Big Brother, I'm pro-gun rights, and I'm way to the left of most Democrats on most issues. Confused? Looking for a label for me? Maybe the "Looney Left" would work.

I consider myself a socialistic libertarian. Kind of a contradiction in terms, but what it means that I believe in the ideals and goals of Socialism but I believe in the day-to-day methods and ideals of libertarian and anarchistic philosophies. This puts me at odds with every high-level politician in the USA, so it's kind of painful to vote. But I certainly would never vote for a Republican because that party is completely OWNED by corporate interests and all the flag-waving and fear-mongering that you use to try to convince me that liberals are unpatriotic is rather unconvincing. You've bought into the mindrot that is spoon fed to you every day by the government. And you say you don't like Big Brother? That's who you're taking all your cues from.

As for the "liberal media" cliche, wow..... it's just amazing to me that anyone actually believes that! The only thing liberal about mass media is that a majority of reporters vote for Democrats. But the majority of owners and editors vote Republican. The fact that some news stories have information you don't like doesn't make them wrong. Try studying the facts behind each story instead of just saying "It's all the liberal media" and smugly wrapping yourself in the flag while comforting yourself that everything you believe is the Truth and everyone who disagrees is underserving to live in America.
And no, I don't think I've lost any of my individual rights, but I haven't read the Patriot Act and neither have most of our legislators. Nice name for it, eh? It's called Marketing. Package your product with a nifty name that makes it impossible for anyone to vote against it without catching hell from simpletons who don't bother to learn what's inside the package. I personally don't know and don't have an opinion about it, from what I hear it's really long and complicated and thus I'm unqualified to judge its merits.

Are you related to Okeedon???:confused2:

The only question I have is regarding the media... Do you feel that the Iraqi war, in particular, has been fairly portrayed by the American media? Just for example, I still to this day hear about Abu Garib and the "attrocities" commited there by American soldiers against Iraqui soldiers... While much worse(in the civilized mind) things like beheadings of innocent construction workers on TV and dismembering and torturing of American soldiers go vertually unmentioned(or get very little press time).. I never hear of the good things happening over there, unless it comes from a soldier via an e-mail.. There are positive things happening in Iraq, but we dont hear about it because the media doesnt show it... So, when I hear the term "liberal media", yes, I believe that is a correct title.. They have also in the past, though I cannot quote it directly, show anti gun views and continue to turn the American peoples minds toward a more Democratic veiw..:myopinion: I believe in order to get the true story, you would need to veiw things like mainstream media as well as
Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and all the other clones dominating the popular talk show circuit
and remember there are always 3 sides to any story... Your side, my side, and the truth..... So to say that these guys are wrong and the media is right only makes your opinion as biased as theirs, just in the oposite direction...
 

BoneheadNW

New member
joasis said:
By the way, what have you done in the service of our nation that protects your freedoms?
Why are you so interested as to what other people have done "in the service of our nation"? What about those people who have not served in the military, police, or any other "service" that you would consider "protects their freedoms"? Are they unworthy to express their opinions, much less be a citizen?
Bonehead
 

DingoTango

New member
joasis said:
Sounds to me like you are as unqualified to judge other's opinions as well...remember, this is only a forum. By the way, what have you done in the service of our nation that protects your freedoms?
:yum: Sorry, I have to laugh at the very last line because it seems that you're asking "How many people have you killed for America?" and if I tell you that I've honestly never put on a military uniform then you will disqualify me from debate. I don't believe in most wars. WWII was one we needed to be in. Just about everything since then has been a mistake, IMO, and I don't think the war in Iraq has ANYTHING to do with "preserving our freedom." How has it done so? How has it served the freedom of those who are forced to carry 100 lbs. of gear on their backs in a blistering desert where they're being shot at and they can't tell who's doing the shooting so they cannot even fight back?

I liked the rest of your response and want to reply point-by-point but you embedded your replies in my quote so.... I'll see if I can pull a few items out and give you some props..... you're in bold font......

"Left and right tend to be less noisy, in my opinion. There is nothing, I repeat, nothing wrong with differing political viewpoints, that is what makes our nation great. I am entitled to my opinion, as you are to yours. My opinion is: If you whine and cry and bitch about our nation, and constantly complain how bad we are..then leave...don't let the door hit you where the Good Lord split you."

So you think of "liberal left" as being to the left of just plain old "left"? This is a sincere question. I have always thought of "liberal" as being to the right of "leftist." Same thing on the right, I think of "right wing" as being to the right of "conservative." So it's also redundant (IMO) to say "conservative right winger". Doesn't really matter.

I agree that if people only whine and bitch about their country, first it just shows how lucky they are to be here because in most countries they wouldn't last very long, and it's mostly people who live in prosperous nations who get spoiled to the point where they have the luxury of complaining all the time. ....also people in really desperate nations complain to the point of overthrowing their governments so maybe I'm full of bull on that last point!

However, to complain about the policies of our elected representatives is not only justified, it can be patriotic! I've "fought for my freedoms" by starting political organizations, participating in protests, voting, educating, becoming more educated, etc. I don't think you have to don a uniform and march with a gun on your shoulder to say you "fought for your country", especially when most of the recent wars have been invasions of impoverished nations that pose absolutely no threat to the USA, only to our corporate interests.

"Ok, I have to ask...you write very intelligently...so you have an education...so where is the evidence or empirical data you reference to validate these statements with? Pull it out of you ass?"

Sort of. I believe you can look that up and verify those factoids for yourself (reporters are liberal, editors less so, owners the least). You'll find that I often post "what I remember reading" and I don't post sources because I'm here to chat, blow off steam, learn from others, laugh, etc., and I am not going to do a bunch of research before I post some "factoids" that I happen to recall. Sometimes I'll be wrong. So, yeah, I kinda "pull it out of my ass." :blahblah: Sometimes I forget to pull my own head out when I'm spelunking for "facts", as you may have already noticed :toilet:

"I actually try to stay informed of most sides of news stories...and there again..I can quote examples, but everyone knows....I suppose in your humble opinion, the growing conservative audience in talk radio (which I rarely listen to) is made up of conservative, simple minded idiots? What happened to the left's attempt of equal time with Air America? No audience? Why?"

My comments about bias are unbiased. We are all biased. There are hundreds, maybe even thousands, of scientific studies demonstrating how humans tend to remember things incorrectly, hear and see incorrectly, and intepret many aspects of the world according to our preconceptions. When you and I look at mass media, you see a liberal bias and I see a conservative bias. Yet we're looking at the same thing! What does this tell us about the media? That they're probably doing a pretty good job of being "somewhere in the middle" because people on either side of them think they're biased in opposite directions.

How can we objectively analyze this? There have been some attempts at using unbiased methods to analyze news content. So far, what few studies have been done (and they're naturally controversial) have failed to demonstrate the liberal bias that virtually every conservative seems absolutely convinced is there. Most people also believe in the absolute truth of the dominant religion of their culture, in spite of a lack of evidence to support their beliefs. And ya know what? Everything they see appears to be "evidence" to them.

Most people on this forum are Christians from what I've seen so far, so I suspect that you all see evidence of God wherever you go. You see it because you believe it. If you were a Hindu, you'd see evidence pointing to the validity of THAT faith in everything you experience because that would be your belief. Same with politics, we tend to believe rather than truly listen. I'm guilty of all the above, being a mere human.

A very entertaining read (or listen) is the book Stumbling On Happiness. It containts summaries of tons of experiments showing how biased we are and how we "cook the books" to make reality fit our preconceptions. It is totally apolitical and doesn't insult anyone's beliefs or opinions in the process, which is quite an accomplishment!

My opinion about Air America is that liberals don't have fun talking points and they don't cater to the right demographics for talk radio. It's not a mirror image of conservative talk radio. I agree more with what I hear on Air America than I do with what I hear on Michael Savage, but Savage is about 50 times more entertaining than anyone on Air Am. so I listen to The Savage Nation. Conservative rants are entertaining and they are emotional so they feel good to listen to. Liberal rants are obnoxious. That's why liberals prefer listening to a Terry Gross interview or just music --- who wants to listen to Al Franken, other than insomniacs? :StickOutT
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
BoneheadNW said:
Why are you so interested as to what other people have done "in the service of our nation"?
Bonehead, I totally agree. What difference does it make? Why should anyone else care and what gives them the right to judge? I suggest they don't have the right to judge me so I will put out what I have not done in the eyes of the wrongly judgemental.

I have not served in any military unit. I have never worked for any government agency (except Jury Duty).

BUT, I'd challenge anyone to suggest that I have not served in some capacity to protect this nation.

But I also don't think that means I can be dismissed as being unpatriotic, or as not protecting rights, nor do I think that it automatically means I have not acted "in the service of our nation."
 

DingoTango

New member
HGM said:
Are you related to Okeedon???:confused2:
Is that another member here? I'm not anyone else on THIS forum, but I have participated in other forums using the names DeepTrance and DuckTurd. My goal is to eventually have people just call me DT in each place.
HGM said:
The only question I have is regarding the media... Do you feel that the Iraqi war, in particular, has been fairly portrayed by the American media?
...There are positive things happening in Iraq, but we dont hear about it because the media doesnt show it...
I agree but I don't think that this shows liberal media bias, it shows sensationalism. For every headline about a little girl being kidnapped and raped, there are millions of happy stories of little girls having a normal day playing with dolls, painting pictures, riding their bikes, giggling with their friends, etc. Why do we only hear the negative stuff? Cuz that's "news" apparently, and the other info is supposed to be "normal" and not interesting enough to report. Media thrives on scandals, sensationalism, scaring people, etc. That's not a bias towards liberalism, it's a bias towards that which will sell their newspapers.

Remember, mainstream media in the USA are mostly for-profit entities. They're doing what sells and they're not interested in pushing a political agenda that doesn't affect their bottom line.
HGM said:
...They have also in the past, though I cannot quote it directly, show anti gun views...
I don't know any facts about bias, but consider this possibility --- maybe you see negative stories about guns because it's not interesting to read about how some guy's gun sat peacefully locked up in a closet. On the other hand, it's very interesting to read about the rare case of a child accessing an unprotected gun and accidentally killing his little brother. Well, "interesting" is the wrong word, it's horrifying, but the point is that it gets your attention and sells the news. So again, is it a bias against guns and wars or is it that guns and wars provide lots of opportunities to report about death and destruction? Bad news sells, whether we like it or not.
 

Dutch-NJ

New member
DingoTango said:
Is that another member here? I'm not anyone else on THIS forum, but I have participated in other forums using the names DeepTrance and DuckTurd. My goal is to eventually have people just call me DT in each place.

Check out some of the posts.... Delirium Tremens.... could apply to a quite a few other participants.
 

dzalphakilo

Banned
joasis said:
Sounds to me like you are as unqualified to judge other's opinions as well...remember, this is only a forum. By the way, what have you done in the service of our nation that protects your freedoms?

What I have "learned" is that question is total bullshit.

I have however thought to myself the same question to those who are "pro war" and to their reasoning.
 
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