Let's count the carb problems from Ethanol in fuel

bczoom · Oct 17, 2012

OK, today I get the pleasure (not!) of taking 3 ATV's to the shop, all for carb problems.

Just want to see how many other carbs are having issues due to Ethanol in the fuel.

I've had 4 engines go down with carb issues so far this year.

You?

Jim_S · Oct 17, 2012

Two string trimmers and a leaf blower in the last two years.

The Sta-Bil folks have an additive to combat the problem. I started using it a couple of months ago. I don't know if it has helped, not enough time to tell.

Jim

bczoom · Oct 17, 2012

I use StaBil Marine formula (thanks PB!). It does seem to help.

waybomb · Oct 17, 2012

Look at it this way - ethanol is stimulating the economy! All this extra work needing to be done! This is great! We'll all grow rich. I think they should bump alcohol up to 20% and really boost the economy.

Phawk.................

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · Oct 17, 2012

I've had two mowers that have had ethanol related issues. I now use Sta-bil marine in all my engines and have so far not had any more problems.

jimbo · Oct 17, 2012

So now we are forced to use a product that costs us around 50 cents for each gallon of fuel we buy and does nothing good, but does raise the price of food, and the solution is to add another product to the gasoline which will cost another 50 cents or so in the hope that we can lessen the damage to that the original product is doing to engines.

Government at its best.

mla2ofus · Oct 17, 2012

The ethanol lobby must have really deep pockets because a couple of months ago there was talk in DC of temporarily dropping the ethanol mandate until a better corn crop comes in. You see how far it went!! The pols are afraid to because once people see how their gas mileage improves w/ $4 a gal gas they won't want to go back.
Mike

FrancSevin · Oct 17, 2012

Genrator with only 50 hours went down this week end for me. Carb issues from Ethanol.

50 hours running time but two years stand by in the barn.

Ironman · Oct 17, 2012

I had zero problems with all my small engines because I have a choice and I don't buy that nasty ethanol shit.
:smile:

FrancSevin · Oct 17, 2012

I had a generator from 1994, cheap homelite. Ran every time I started it no matter how I abused it.

Until two years ago. Ethanol fuel put it down in about three tanks.

AAUTOFAB1 · Oct 17, 2012

i had been recently been removing the ethanol from the gas i used after replacing fuel lines and having carb problems this seemed to work but was yet another step to fueling my small engines, chain saw ,leaf blower,weed eater,lawn tractor,exc. but have found a station that sells ethanol free gas and i hope paying a little extra now saves me a lot of money and time latter.replaced the carb on my 1973 sear st16 tractor(water ruined the aluminum housing) it now gets ethonol free gas. ever try finding a good carb for old small engines? $$$$ :hammer:

tiredretired · Oct 17, 2012

Ironman said:
I had zero problems with all my small engines because I have a choice and I don't buy that nasty ethanol shit.

+1 for me. I go one step further and Seafoam to them as well. 1 fl. oz. per gallon.

Ironman · Oct 17, 2012

TiredRetired said:
+1 for me. I go one step further and Seafoam to them as well. 1 fl. oz. per gallon.

That seafoam seems to be some good stuff. I winterize my bike and mowers with it every year and never have any trouble come spring. A lot of motorcycle guys with carbs swear by it.

300 H and H · Oct 17, 2012

Ironman said:
That seafoam seems to be some good stuff. I winterize my bike and mowers with it every year and never have any trouble come spring. A lot of motorcycle guys with carbs swear by it.

Very little trouble with E10, nothing ordinary gasoline cann't or won't do with enough storage time. I think both are better in a steel container rather than plastic, if storage time is your goal. Yes I've had gas go bad as well. But I have to point out pure gasoline has a shelf life, and not much more thatn E10 if stored properly. My nest gen set will be diesel, as gas in those is really prone to get old before it is used. Not an issue with diesel. I just ran some that was 14 years old two summers ago.

I really hope with time the supply sytem gets clean out of the heavy petroleum resins that could be some of the issues you have. It was an issue here as well, but 30 years ago. I cann't remember the last time I heard it was an issue. Milage will be some what less however. Cost per mile here anyway is better. but we have it made here on our doorsteps...

Nope I don't want to debate on ethanol. I just wish to inform about it's use. Seafoam is a wonderful product, and I recommend it. I am sure the E10 product is a good idea.

At harvest we used a 1961 Waukasha 283 cub in. 6 cylinder to elevate/auger 100,000 bu or so of corn into grain bins on E10. We've used this engine and E10 for 30 years since. Ran perfect as it always does. Waukasha builds a very good engine by the way. One of the few farm uses for gasoline I still have.

Regards, Kirk

300 H and H · Oct 17, 2012

Oh,

The fuel lines and any plactic made years ago may not be ethanol compatable..This ssue will go away if the correct tubing is used when torn down for repairs.....All currently made fuel rated tubing is ethanol compatable. Make sure your shop of choice has this fuel line tubing, and any other plastic bits that might need replacing.

Regards, Kirk

AndyM · Oct 17, 2012

jimbo said:
So now we are forced to use a product that costs us around 50 cents for each gallon of fuel we buy and does nothing good, but does raise the price of food, and the solution is to add another product to the gasoline which will cost another 50 cents or so in the hope that we can lessen the damage to that the original product is doing to engines.

Government at its best.

From Economist Thomas Sowell...

Four stages in Washington aggrandizement:

1) Crisis
2) Big government action
3) Failure of government action
4) Bigger government action

mbsieg · Oct 17, 2012

Be VERY careful adding seafoam to ethanol gas. It is made of alcohol and you are adding more to the gas it is not a good thing. I stopped using seafoam after being its number one supporter for years. Try a product like gas rx or similar. http://dieselfuelproducts.com/gasoline_additives.php It really works and it is very reasonably priced. As to how many probs from ethanol. THOUSANDS.................

300 H and H · Oct 17, 2012

mbsieg said:
Be VERY careful adding seafoam to ethanol gas. It is made of alcohol and you are adding more to the gas it is not a good thing. I stopped using seafoam after being its number one supporter for years. Try a product like gas rx or similar. http://dieselfuelproducts.com/gasoline_additives.php It really works and it is very reasonably priced. As to how many probs from ethanol. THOUSANDS.................

New one on me as that is all we put seafoam it in to, E10....

From your tag line I believe you are profiting from this aren't you? You are in the business, aren't you? Why did you stop with seafoam? Did it ruin an engine or is this just "smoke and mirrors" you read some where...

Regards, Kirk

mbsieg · Oct 17, 2012

Even though I am "in the business" I hate repairing things that should not have been a problem in the first place. I love preventive maint. Kinda hard to do when your dumping crap in your tank..... Needle valves from all the manufactures swell and do not seal with to much alcohol. Plastic carb floats turn rubbery. or brittle and break. no these are not on 1990 models these are on 08 09 sleds 10 11 4 wheelers. I am not saying seafoam is bad its not it is great. BUT it is made partially from alcohol SOOOOO if you have ethanol in your gas I do not recommend adding more alcohol to it of any kind. Yes we can get both ethanol and non ethanol here. I prefer non I get ave 1-2 mpg better in my sub it runs better. Just like my diesel pickup I do not prefer Biodiesel. less power less mileage. To me it is stupid to have such a surplus of oil in this country and we are burning an inferior fuel (our food). Making prices on food go up.

300 H and H · Oct 17, 2012

Just like my diesel pickup I do not prefer Biodiesel. less power less mileage I quote..

Not sure why you would think this, but every thing else I won't pick at even though I could. There is no difference that I have found in the heat energy of bio being any different than that of regular diesel. With ethanol there is. Sounds to me like you just have a bone to pick, and nothing to back it up...On the contrary the ULSD has no natural lubricity as the sulfur was the lubricant that let injectors and pump's live long and healthy lives. The bio provides the lubricity of ULSD to the same as sulfured fuels, and does this at only the 2% level. You credibillty is slipping here....You need to do some more home work on ULSD, before you attack bio diesel. Needless to say you would not be my service guy with your comments.

Regards, Kirk

FrancSevin · Oct 18, 2012

300 H and H said:
Just like my diesel pickup I do not prefer Biodiesel. less power less mileage I quote..

Not sure why you would think this, but every thing else I won't pick at even though I could. There is no difference that I have found in the heat energy of bio being any different than that of regular diesel. With ethanol there is. Sounds to me like you just have a bone to pick, and nothing to back it up...On the contrary the ULSD has no natural lubricity as the sulfur was the lubricant that let injectors and pump's live long and healthy lives. The bio provides the lubricity of ULSD to the same as sulfured fuels, and does this at only the 2% level. You credibillty is slipping here....You need to do some more home work on ULSD, before you attack bio diesel. Needless to say you would not be my service guy with your comments.

Regards, Kirk

I agree with you onBiodiesel and prevfer it in my engines. They all actually run quieter and smoother on Bio D. The only drawback is cold weather jelling, but that is solvable with an additive.

But, as you know Kirk, I have issues with ETOH fuels. Especially in small engines. And most criticaly is antique engines. My 9N Ford tractor (1939 year) took a total refit of all the fuel system parts.
It is not so much the ETOH fuels are for sale, But in many states and cities, they are all that is legaly available. Once again I must use the operative evil word,,,,MANDATES!

DROP THEM, AND LET ETHANOL STAND ON IT'S OWN.

Cowboy · Oct 18, 2012

Until reading this thread I thought all of my problems with small engines over the past several years were just my normal piss poor luck, now not so much. :doh:

The last few weeks I have had more fuel related problems then ever with all 3 of my Harley Davidson golfcarts & the only thing I can relate it to now is piss poor grades of gas. :glare:

Everything from the inside parts of the carbs (normally included in carb kits) to fuel lines, tank floats, pumps and any plastic parts related to fuel . These are all vintage & very few newer or updated parts other then NOS are available for these so its been a continuous problem for me.

Add to that I have had the same problems with my weedeaters, chainsaws, generators, power washer & I am now wondering if it might not have played a part in my riding mower that was the cause of my recent shop fire.

The only places that carry "real" fuel are the small farmer Coops in surrounding small towns that are to far away for me to even get any decent fuel due to the fact I dont drive any longer. I have no idea what the answer is, but its getting perty damn pathetic to have so many problems caused by something thats supposed to be so damn good for "us". :furious:

Rant OFF.

mbsieg · Oct 18, 2012

300 H and H said:
Just like my diesel pickup I do not prefer Biodiesel. less power less mileage I quote..

Not sure why you would think this, but every thing else I won't pick at even though I could. There is no difference that I have found in the heat energy of bio being any different than that of regular diesel. With ethanol there is. Sounds to me like you just have a bone to pick, and nothing to back it up...On the contrary the ULSD has no natural lubricity as the sulfur was the lubricant that let injectors and pump's live long and healthy lives. The bio provides the lubricity of ULSD to the same as sulfured fuels, and does this at only the 2% level. You credibillty is slipping here....You need to do some more home work on ULSD, before you attack bio diesel. Needless to say you would not be my service guy with your comments.

Regards, Kirk

http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/miles-per-gallon-of-biofuel/1

I guess we agree to disagree then. Personal attack are not appreciated. I will not reply again. I guess this is why so many have left. I prob will again also.

mbsieg · Oct 18, 2012

http://www.eia.gov/oiaf/analysispaper/biodiesel/

Another disadvantage of biodiesel is that it tends to reduce fuel economy. Energy efficiency is the percentage of the fuel’s thermal energy that is delivered as engine output, and biodiesel has shown no significant effect on the energy efficiency of any test engine. Volumetric efficiency, a measure that is more familiar to most vehicle users, usually is expressed as miles traveled per gallon of fuel (or kilometers per liter of fuel). The energy content per gallon of biodiesel is approximately 11 percent lower than that of petroleum diesel.14 Vehicles running on B20 are therefore expected to achieve 2.2 percent (20 percent x 11 percent) fewer miles per gallon of fuel.

mbsieg · Oct 18, 2012

This is not a biodiesel thread though............ Uneducated Mike out Oh ya there is alot more google it.....

300 H and H · Oct 18, 2012

mbsieg said:
http://www.eia.gov/oiaf/analysispaper/biodiesel/

Another disadvantage of biodiesel is that it tends to reduce fuel economy. Energy efficiency is the percentage of the fuel’s thermal energy that is delivered as engine output, and biodiesel has shown no significant effect on the energy efficiency of any test engine. Volumetric efficiency, a measure that is more familiar to most vehicle users, usually is expressed as miles traveled per gallon of fuel (or kilometers per liter of fuel). The energy content per gallon of biodiesel is approximately 11 percent lower than that of petroleum diesel.14 Vehicles running on B20 are therefore expected to achieve 2.2 percent (20 percent x 11 percent) fewer miles per gallon of fuel.

Good point that some how escaped me. I'll eat the "crow" on this one. I have never had the chance to buy B20, as only B2 is available here, anyway. At that level we see no apparent change in fuel economy in our tractors and trucks....I do know that B2 checks out as to the lubricity lacking in ULSD. Thanks for the information, and I won't doubt you again. I should have done more home work.... :flowers:

Regards, Kirk

PS, just for the record, I believe that oil is not finite in supply. It is being produced in the earths crust, as the Russian do...

loboloco · Oct 18, 2012

Problems related to ethanol, about 20 until I switched to non-eth for my small stuff.
Biodiesel, is a good concept and mainly depends on how well it is done. Some of the bio coming out is absolute crap while others do better. I generally found that the bio available commercially was not very well performing, but if you could get it from a small producer that used it their-self it was a better product. I noticed that it does sightly reduce power in larger diesel engines but not enough to cause me to be totally down on it.

FrancSevin · Oct 18, 2012

And for all this aggrevation,,,,it appaernetly is not helping the environment at all.

Biofuels: Going from Useless to Harmful

Reference
Revell, L.E., Bodeker, G.E., Huck, P.E. and Williamson, B.E. 2012. Impacts of the production and consumption of biofuels on stratospheric ozone. Geophysical Research Letters 39: 10.1029/2012GL051546.
Enough serious work has been conducted on the growing, harvesting and processing of the raw materials that can be transformed into biofuels to indicate that they are essentially useless when it comes to doing what they are supposed to do, which is to lead to less anthropogenic-induced CO2 emissions to the atmosphere (see Biofuels in our Topical Archive); and now a paper comes along that suggests that biofuels actually have a net negative impact on Earth's biosphere.
Revell et al. (2012) first note that the nitrogen-based fertilizers used in growing the crops from which biofuels are produced lead to excessive N2O emissions, citing Crutzen et al. (2008) and Smeets et al. (2009), after which they point out that "N2O is a greenhouse gas with a 100-year global warming potential of ~298, and a lifetime of ~114 years," citing Forster et al. (2007). And on top of these gloomy assessments, they go on to analyze the potential negative consequences of the fact that "N2O leads to stratospheric ozone destruction," as noted over four decades ago by Crutzen (1970).
In analyzing "the potential effects on the ozone layer of a large-scale shift away from fossil fuel use to biofuels consumption over the 21st century," the four New Zealand researchers find that "global-mean column ozone decreases by 2.6 DU between 2010 and 2100," due to the fact that "1) large N2O emissions lead to faster rates of the ozone-depleting NOx cycles and; 2) reduced CO2 emissions (due to less fossil fuel burning) lead to relatively less stratospheric cooling over the 21st century, which decreases ozone abundances."
In light of their findings, as Revell et al. state in the concluding sentence of their report, "increased biofuels production and consumption could therefore be damaging to the ozone layer," which would be detrimental to the biosphere due to the fact that the stratospheric ozone layer filters out much of the harmful UV-B radiation coming from the sun, which otherwise could do much damage to Earth's terrestrial plants.
Additional References
Crutzen, P.J. 1970. The influence of nitrogen oxides on the atmospheric ozone content. Quarterly Journal of the Royal Meteorological Society 96: 320-325.
Crutzen, P.J., Mosier, A.R., Smith, K.A. and Winiwarter, W. 2008. N2O release from agro-biofuel production negates global warming reduction by replacing fossil fuels. Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics 8: 389-396.
Forster, P., Ramaswamy, V., Artaxo, P. et al. 2007. Changes in atmospheric constituents and in radiative forcing. In: Solomon, S., Qin, D., Manning, M., Chen, Z., Marquis, M., Averyt, K.B., Tignor, M. and Miller, H.L. (Eds.). Climate Change 2007: The Physical Science Basis. Contribution of Working Group I to the Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Cambridge, United Kingdom, pp. 129-234.
Smeets, E.M.W., Bouwmanw, L.F., Stehfest, E., van Vuuren, D.P. and Posthuma, A. 2009. Contribution of N2O to the greenhouse gas balance of first-generation biofuels. Global Change Biology 15: 1-23.

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Let's count the carb problems from Ethanol in fuel

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