It's Official, Americans no longer have religious freedoms.

[FrancSevin]

As we begin to allow Muslims to violate our common laws to accomodate their faith, we attack Christians for practising their faith and for excercising their freedom to associate (or not) with whom they chose.


The New Mexico Court of Appeals just made a landmark decision that could affect every Christian business person in America.
Elaine and Jonathan Huguenin of Albuquerque, New Mexico are the owners of Elane Photography. They also happen to be Christians who do their best to live and run their business by their Christian values.

In 2006, Vanessa Willock contacted Elane Photography and asked they would photograph her ‘commitment ceremony’ with her lesbian partner. Elaine Huguenin refused to accept the request based upon her Christian belief. Both Elaine and Jon felt strongly that the message being presented by the lesbian ceremony was against their Christian faith and therefore it would be wrong of them to participate in any fashion.
At the time, same-sex marriages and civil unions were not recognized as being legal in the state of New Mexico. Willock and her partner were attempting to do the next best thing in their minds by having a commitment ceremony.
After Elaine turned down the request, Willock filed a complaint with the New Mexico Human Rights Commission. The complaint stated that the Huguenins had discriminated against Willock because of her sexual orientation. In the meantime, Willock secured another photographer to photo their sinful and perverse ceremony.
In 2008 (http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/5537?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1), the New Mexico Human Rights Commission ruled that the Huguenins engaged in sexual orientation discrimination and ordered them to pay Willock $6,639.94 in legal fees. The case then went before a trial judge who upheld the commission’s decision.
In 2009, the Alliance Defense Fund appealed the court’s decision which moved the case before the New Mexico Court of Appeals who just rendered their decision to also uphold the commission’s ruling. Contained in the 45 page ruling, the court said that the photography business is a public accommodation and as such cannot use their faith to discriminate against others based upon sexual orientation. Part of the ruling read (http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/refuse-to-photograph-lesbians-get-fined-7000/),
“The owners of Elane Photography must accept the reasonable regulations and restrictions imposed upon the conduct of their commercial enterprise despite their personal religious beliefs that may conflict with these governmental interests.”
Jordan Lance (http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/5537?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1), senior counsel and senior vice-president of the Office of Strategic Initiatives for the Alliance Defense Fund commented about the ruling saying,
“Americans in the marketplace should not be subjected to legal attacks for simply abiding by their beliefs. Should the government force a videographer who is an animal rights activist to create a video promoting hunting and taxidermy? Of course not, and neither should the government force this photographer to promote a message that violates her conscience. Because the Constitution prohibits the state from forcing unwilling artists to promote a message they disagree with, we will certainly appeal this decision to the New Mexico Supreme Court.”
If this ruling is upheld by both the New Mexico Supreme Court and US Supreme Court, it could be used as the legal precedent for any homosexual to sue a Christian business if they believe they have been discriminated against in any form. It will also be used to force any Christian operating a business that is open to the public to do things that are against their faith or face a lengthy court battle and end up having to pay hefty fines and legal fees.
I’ve said this time and time again, that homosexuals do not want equal treatment, rather they want preferential treatment above and beyond what everyone else gets. They want special rights, not equal rights and they are succeeding in securing them at the cost of Christian’s rights. The only way for homosexuals to gain their rights is to strip Christians of theirs and that is exactly what is happening. And it’s happening because too many Christians in America have been too complacent and have done nothing to protect our Christian rights.
If what is happening to Elaine and Jon Huguenin disgusts and upsets you, then get off your butt and do something about it. Contact your own local, state and federal politicians and urge them to protect America’s Christian rights and values. Get out and help campaign for those men and women who will work to protect our rights. When November comes around, get out and vote for those candidates who will do what’s right.
Most importantly, pray, pray and pray some more. Prayer is the most powerful tool and weapon a Christian has. If every Christian earnestly prayed for our nation and its leaders, we would see a remarkable change in our country. I wish every Christian would post 2 Chronicles 7:14 in their homes and memorize it and teach it to their children. If we want to save our nation, we need to follow God’s instructions when He said,
“If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and heal their land.”
Amen! Amen! Amen!


Read more: http://godfatherpolitics.com/5534/new-mexico-court-says-christian-photographer-must-violate-faith-or-pay-hefty-fines/#ixzz1x301mFB3 (http://godfatherpolitics.com/5534/new-mexico-court-says-christian-photographer-must-violate-faith-or-pay-hefty-fines/#ixzz1x301mFB3)

[AAUTOFAB1]

they made the mistake of telling the lesbian couple why they would not photograph the ceremony because of their beliefs,i firmly believe people open them selfs up for this kind of harassment all the time,you can simply schedule no openings or have tentative vacation plans,you can refer them to your competition for the times unwanted clients wish to do business with you.and you are under no obligation to share your future schedule with them,I'm a believer in the right to refuse services to anyone for any reason,their are plenty of businesses that will take money from anyone that is willing to pay(mine included)but forcing a privately owned business to work for some one they do not wish is very troubling to me. keep your mouth shut about your personal feelings about how others choose to live their lives in your business dealings. JMHO

[squerly]

I truly believe that the time is approaching when average Americans will start to react in a manner that is drastically inconsistent with their normal behavior. Faced with unacceptable situations such as this, people will start to react in ways that conflict with current laws. This may manifest itself in peacefully civil disobedience, growing into larger and more aggressive actions. But either way, the end result can be attributed to the frustration that develops from watching double standards erode our freedoms while rewarding the actions of minorities.

In short, the shit will hit the fan…

[TiredRetired]

This is why it is so important we elect someone who will appoint conservative judges to SCOTUS. I pray Romney will do so. A SCOTUS stacked with liberal activist judges will continue to erode all of our personal freedoms, not just the First Amendment, all in the name of "progress".

[luvs]

no one can steal away my Holy Bible, my crucifix jewelry or my tattoo, my church, or my faith. just sayin'.

[Danang Sailor]

no one can steal away my Holy Bible, my crucifix jewelry or my tattoo, my church, or my faith. just sayin'.

Actually, they can take all of that, except maybe your faith. Ask any old, European Jew. Never say never, as the song goes.

[luvs]

so they'll pay for laser tattoo removal, & due to the fact that the Bible can be memorized, s'ppose they'd hafta gimme a lobotomy to erase that, also steal churches away in a violent manner. jewelry is so easily hidden away.......
u know nothing of how interested & educated i am in history....... how much i need not be lectured. you've nary an inclination of how many of my friends're Jewish, u know pretty much nothing much of me.

[pirate_girl]

no one can steal away my Holy Bible, my crucifix jewelry or my tattoo, my church, or my faith. just sayin'.
Don't forget our rosaries..:biggrin:

[luvs]

both're safe. i'm getting another. they'll be safe. i remain faithful.

[SShepherd]

so they'll pay for laser tattoo removal, & due to the fact that the Bible can be memorized, s'ppose they'd hafta gimme a lobotomy to erase that, also steal churches away in a violent manner. jewelry is so easily hidden away.......
u know nothing of how interested & educated i am in history....... how much i need not be lectured. you've nary an inclination of how many of my friends're Jewish, u know pretty much nothing much of me.

uh, easy peasy lemon squeezy........

no need to be so defencive, no ones lecturing you or anyone else for that matter we're just having a discussion.

[Danang Sailor]

so they'll pay for laser tattoo removal, & due to the fact that the Bible can be memorized, s'ppose they'd hafta gimme a lobotomy to erase that, also steal churches away in a violent manner. jewelry is so easily hidden away.......
u know nothing of how interested & educated i am in history....... how much i need not be lectured. you've nary an inclination of how many of my friends're Jewish, u know pretty much nothing much of me.

You're right, what little I know of you is based on what you've shared here on FF. However, please note that I was not
attacking you personally, assailing you for antisemitism, nor even lecturing you; I was simply pointing out how easily
material things can be taken away and giving you an example from fairly recent history. Things that are hidden can be
found, buildings can be destroyed, and tattoos can be obliterated ... and acid is faster and much cheaper than a laser.
Don't forget, we are at war with those opposed to our every freedom that would relish those actions.

This is not the first time you have chosen to interpret one of my posts as some sort of personal affront, when all that was
intended was a continuation of an ongoing discussion. I have have been in some heated discussions here on FF, but you are
the only one who has consistently treated even fully benign comments, such as the one that promoted the rant quoted
above, as if they were poisoned pills dropped into your soup*.

I don't truly understand what your issues are. Since you cannot seem to accept a point of view different from your own
I will stop bothering you with replies that you find so obviously distasteful. Perhaps someone else who does know something
of you might drop me a line to explain the nature the problem that causes you to respond to me with such
vitriol, but at this point it no longer matters a great deal.



*Upon reflection, this statement is not correct. Mak2 often responded to my posts (and those of others) in ways that were
completely at odds with the intent and tenor of the original, so you're not alone ... although I'm not sure this would be
the company you would choose to keep.

[FrancSevin]

so they'll pay for laser tattoo removal, & due to the fact that the Bible can be memorized, s'ppose they'd hafta gimme a lobotomy to erase that, also steal churches away in a violent manner. jewelry is so easily hidden away.......
u know nothing of how interested & educated i am in history....... how much i need not be lectured. you've nary an inclination of how many of my friends're Jewish, u know pretty much nothing much of me.

What I believe he, DS, is telling you is that your view is naive.

You can have all the faith you want in your heart. And all the ions mean nothingwhether or not you possess them.

But when it becomes illegal to profess them, then we are in the shadows of the holocast.

Your icons and images of faith ought not be about you, and the tattoos are worthless if the government were to shoot you for them.

[luvs]

ds, i mentioned Judiasim not due to anti-semitism, i mentioned it as u implied i lack knowledge of recent history.
yeah, tattoos can be removed in various ways. the memory would remain~
you reiterated my saying that yes, churches can be taken- in a violent manner.
& how can u say that i've chosen to misinterperet. how would u know how i think.......
none too certain i'm the one that's overreacting. i passed no judgement on anyone.

i'm not naive, franc. let them shoot me,- i have my faith that it was my time to pass on in His eyes.
& i certainly wasn't in disagreement. & my images & icons reflect my faith. where would u get that they're not~
internet pix, sometimes, yes. religious jewelry, tattoos, etc, they're of faith.

if it seems that i was, well, like they say, the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

this is silly. i stated my point same as any other here.

[Danang Sailor]

luvs, this will be the lecture you have accused me of trying to give you. I don't normally do this, but you are so far away
from reality here that it seems necessary,

ds, i mentioned Judiasim not due to anti-semitism, i mentioned it as u implied i lack knowledge of recent history.
I specifically stated that I was NOT accusing you of antisemitism. As to your knowledge of 20th century history,
your comments did and do seem to reflect a degree of naivety.
yeah, tattoos can be removed in various ways. the memory would remain~
you reiterated my saying that yes, churches can be taken- in a violent manner.The contention in your original post was that these things could not be taken from you!
& how can u say that i've chosen to misinterperet. how would u know how i think....... I can say that because your screed makes it clear that is exactly what you have done. If you had NOT treated my post as some
sort of personal attack you would not have reacted as you did.
none too certain i'm the one that's overreacting. i passed no judgement on anyone.

this is silly. i stated my point same as any other here.As to whether or not you have "passed judgement" on anyone, I'll leave that determination to your conscience ... and the
others here on FF. However, be advised that passing judgement is exactly what is going to happen right now.

Based solely on your posts in general and these posts in particular, it is my judgement that you have spent too much
time becoming fluent in "Pittsburghese" and not nearly enough trying to master standard English. The content of
simple, declarative sentences seems to be beyond your grasp, yet you have the effrontery to imply that I am the one with
the problem! I challenge anyone with a rudimentary grasp of this, our theoretically common language, to read the posts
that set you off, and then determine that I am the one with the problem.

I will not waste further time nor effort tilting at your windmills; the odds are that this will not cause you to
review our posts here and recognize your own fault in them. We will correspond no more. I wish you better
luck with the rest of FF.

[luvs]

lecture on. i think 1 way & you, another.
simple as that.
nitpick away. seriously, i'm too busy to pay it much mind at all.
i'm prepping 4 college graduation & that takes major precedence.

oh, btw, my CAT tests showing my linguists/english capacaties @ college-level as a mere child (sent ahead in grade level to take the tests, moreover) reflects my inabilaty to grasp 'proper' english, huh~. my high-school linguists score was the highest level feasible. was in the advanced-advanced classes. couldn't score a pt. higher. so i say 'yinz'. some say 'ya'll'. i call sprite 'pop'. yinz say 'soda'. we say 'picksburgh'. yinz say 'pittsburgh.'
i knew/was raised on Pittsburghese. learned it from my Pap. he passed away exactly 4 years ago to the day. taps, 21 gun salute, served as many wars as he could, & eventually was a drill sergeant. hope that makes u proud of urself. thx, i'll mentally thank u personally when my mascara runs.
i think uuuu need a hobby. real guys won't pick on women. we learned in both psych classes that guys that lash @ women lack self-esteem.
& btw, lol, 2nd time u said u shant respond to me. i knew you'd respond. i'm intuitive.

[luvs]

lecture on. i think 1 way & you, another.
simple as that.
nitpick away. seriously, i'm too busy to pay it much mind at all.
i'm prepping 4 college graduation & that takes major precedence.

oh, btw, my CAT tests showing my linguists/english capacaties @ college-level as a mere child (sent ahead in grade level to take the tests, moreover) reflects my inabilaty to grasp 'proper' english, huh~. my high-school linguists score was the highest level feasible. was in the advanced-advanced classes. couldn't score a pt. higher. so i say 'yinz'. some say 'ya'll'. i call sprite 'pop'. yinz say 'soda'. we say 'picksburgh'. yinz say 'pittsburgh.'
i knew/was raised on Pittsburghese. learned it from my Pap. he passed away exactly 4 years ago to the day. taps, 21 gun salute, served as many wars as he could, & eventually was a drill sergeant. hope that makes u proud of urself. thx, i'll mentally thank u personally when my mascara runs.
i think uuuu need a hobby. real guys won't pick on women. we learned in both psych classes that guys that lash @ women lack self-esteem.
& btw, lol, 2nd time u said u shant respond to me. i knew you'd respond. i'm intuitive.


my bad, my Pap passed next month. i transposed.
& fyi, typing in caps indicates yelling unless abbreviating, bold only adds emphasis to that, & underlining is not well-recieved by most, either.

[SShepherd]

Luvs, you need to drop it.You started the attack on DS- no ones picking on you, but simply defending themselves.

"no one can steal away my Holy Bible, my crucifix jewelry or my tattoo, my church, or my faith. just sayin'. "

other than your faith, and knowledge stored- anything physical can be taken from you. The Nazis' did it to the jews, and the communists have done it to christians- those are facts.

honestly, lets stop the personal attacks- I won't even bother with the english and posting etiquette

[luvs]

i dropped it last nite- haven't the time to worry over whether yinz agree or disagree. if u dislike my posts & etiquette/manner of speaking, utilize the ignore function.

[Oz and Fert]

Loosing our freedom of religious speech is a possible thing in America. I many places it is almost hate speech to say it is not okay to be gay or God hates fags in defending Leviticus 18:22 and Romans 1 :25-32.

[SShepherd]

Loosing our freedom of religious speech is a possible thing in America. I many places it is almost hate speech to say it is not okay to be gay or God hates fags in defending Leviticus 18:22 and Romans 1 :25-32.

honestly, to say "God hates fags" is not only mentally retarded it gives christians a bad name.

[mak2]

You're right, what little I know of you is based on what you've shared here on FF. However, please note that I was not
attacking you personally, assailing you for antisemitism, nor even lecturing you; I was simply pointing out how easily
material things can be taken away and giving you an example from fairly recent history. Things that are hidden can be
found, buildings can be destroyed, and tattoos can be obliterated ... and acid is faster and much cheaper than a laser.
Don't forget, we are at war with those opposed to our every freedom that would relish those actions.

This is not the first time you have chosen to interpret one of my posts as some sort of personal affront, when all that was
intended was a continuation of an ongoing discussion. I have have been in some heated discussions here on FF, but you are
the only one who has consistently treated even fully benign comments, such as the one that promoted the rant quoted
above, as if they were poisoned pills dropped into your soup*.

I don't truly understand what your issues are. Since you cannot seem to accept a point of view different from your own
I will stop bothering you with replies that you find so obviously distasteful. Perhaps someone else who does know something
of you might drop me a line to explain the nature the problem that causes you to respond to me with such
vitriol, but at this point it no longer matters a great deal.



*Upon reflection, this statement is not correct. Mak2 often responded to my posts (and those of others) in ways that were
completely at odds with the intent and tenor of the original, so you're not alone ... although I'm not sure this would be
the company you would choose to keep.





Dork.



:yum:

[Kane]

Assuming everyone has a Band Aid on their hurt feelings by now, back to the OP ...

This seems to be the gist of the landmark New Mexico controversy, boiled down to a single paragraph:

“Americans in the marketplace should not be subjected to legal attacks for simply abiding by their beliefs. Should the government force a videographer who is an animal rights activist to create a video promoting hunting and taxidermy? Of course not, and neither should the government force this photographer to promote a message that violates her conscience. Because the Constitution prohibits the state from forcing unwilling artists to promote a message they disagree with, we will certainly appeal this decision to the New Mexico Supreme Court.”Which parallels the Chick-Fil-A nonsense currently afoot. Our Constitution clearly grants freedom of expression and religion to the individual. The Constitution does not, however, grant the government (whether federal, state or local) the right to impose a religious opinion upon the individual or otherwise coerce the individual to "feel" a certain way.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.The Supreme Court has never interpreted the First Amendment as having the power to alter purely private property rights, or provide any other protection against purely private action. Therefore, IMO, the courts (even at the local level) have no authority to demand that a private wedding photaug or private fried chicken joint acquiesce to the religious or ideological demands of another. The offended party can simply take their business elsewhere.

Just as collective members of an obscure, backwoods sno-cat website have no authority or jurisdiction to demand that another member cease blogging with fashionably annoying tweets, truncated idiomatic expressions, localized agglutinative wordstock, vexing punctuation or other queer linguistics that willfully bastardize the King's English. The offended parties can take their blogging elsewhere, or, simply groan audibly.
.

[Oz and Fert]

honestly, to say "God hates fags" is not only mentally retarded it gives christians a bad name. But this is in the KJV Bible. Leviticus 18:22. Romans 1:25-27,32. 2 Peter 2:12-13.

[SShepherd]

But this is in the KJV Bible. Leviticus 18:22. Romans 1:25-27,32. 2 Peter 2:12-13.
NO

God hates homosexuality.

See, just like the Westboro who give christians a bad name. Do you think Jesus used the word "whore" or "slut" when he spoke to the prostitute ? The thing people seem to be forgetting is God loves everyone (remember John 3:16), but he also says ALL sin recieves the same end (romans 6:23)

We hate sin by refusing to take part in it and by condemning it when we see it. Sin is to be hated, not excused or taken lightly. We love sinners by being faithful in witnessing to them of the forgiveness that is available through Jesus Christ. A true act of love is treating someone with respect and kindness even though he/she knows you do not approve of his lifestyle and/or choices. It is not loving to allow a person to remain stuck in sin. It is not hateful to tell a person he/she is in sin. In fact, the exact opposites are true. We love the sinner by speaking the truth in love. We hate the sin by refusing to condone, ignore, or excuse it.

The words "God hates fags" is in itself hatefull

as to chik-fil-a;
it's a business, the "business" has no opinion on anything but to sell chik-fil-a. Kane hits it on the head with his last post.
to the people who are clammering at the gates with pitchforks and torches demanding the head of the person who said it;
And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

[Oz and Fert]

Pastor Fred Phelps normally preaches Biblical Christianity warning people that God is angry with sinners. If God had loved unrepentant sinners no matter they spit in His Face, He wouldn't punish humankind with tragedies, deaths, sorrows, and there wouldn't be Hell for mankind except for Satan and his angels or demons. Since most of humans reject Jesus Christ or honor Him in vain and commit evils in sight of The Lord without repenting, so The Lord got to do is to punish all unrepentant heathens. We can't deny Psalm 5:4-5, 7:11. Romans 9:13 dealing with good Jacob and evil Essau. Romans 1:18-32. 1 John 4:8. 2 Peter 2:12-13. God indeed loves any sinner who seeks Jesus righteously and turns away from doing sins.
I don't agree with WBC only on one thing, as they picket at dead soldiers funerals that got no business with those filthy sodomites. Here Fred Phelps went too far, I agree. But the rest what they say regarding sodomites, adulterers, baby butchers, etc I agree. That is 130% Biblical. God demands repentance and humility to be pleased. Luke 13:3.
Thanks and respects. :)

[SShepherd]

you seem fixated on hatred. You need to re read john 3:16..
Fred preaches hate, and condones it- plain and simple. NOWHERE does it say christians are to hate anyone.
I'm don't with you, as you seem to condone hate.

[Kane]

Welcome to Forums Forums, Oz.

Just looking at your seven or so posts since you wandered onto FF, they all seem to do specifically with hating gays. Fine. We get it. Your infinite knowledge of applicable Bible verses is duly noted. But as a courtesy to posting protocol, how about speaking specifically to the topic of the thread. Let's see how that goes.

Thanks.
.

[pirate_girl]

you seem fixated on hatred. You need to re read john 3:16..
Fred preaches hate, and condones it- plain and simple. NOWHERE does it say christians are to hate anyone.
I'm done with you, as you seem to condone hate.
:clap:

[Doc]

“Americans in the marketplace should not be subjected to legal attacks for simply abiding by their beliefs. Should the government force a videographer who is an animal rights activist to create a video promoting hunting and taxidermy? Of course not, and neither should the government force this photographer to promote a message that violates her conscience. Because the Constitution prohibits the state from forcing unwilling artists to promote a message they disagree with, we will certainly appeal this decision to the New Mexico Supreme Court.”

Along the same lines:


Contraceptive mandate takes effect amid calls to overturn, concerns about religious freedom

The mandate in President Obama’s health care law requiring employers to provide access to free contraceptive coverage took effect Wednesday -- amid efforts in Washington and across the country to reverse what critics claim is an attack on religious freedom and a financial burden on employers.

House Speaker John Boehner led the call on Capitol Hill, urging either the courts or Congress to upend the mandate.

“The Democratic-controlled Senate preemptively blocked legislation that would have reversed this attack on religious freedom,” said Boehner, R-Ohio. “It stands because the president has refused to listen to the people and institutions that built a great nation. … Whether the administration’s attack on religious freedom is reversed through judicial action, legislative action or other means, it must be reversed.”

The mandate is for new policies and is one of several related to women’s health going into effect. It exempts churches but affects businesses with 50-plus employees -- including religious-affiliated hospitals and schools. With the law going into effect, those that don't comply could be slapped with a federal fine of $100 a day for each employee. Those fines could add up quickly for large religious-affiliated institutions that are resisting the change.

Some of those institutions will be afforded a one-year grace period. For-profit employers will not. The Catholic Association, in a memo circulated earlier this week, said "it matters not. August 1 is D-Day for religious freedom in America."

More here: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/08/01/contraceptive-mandate-begins-amid-calls-to-overturn-concerns-about-religious/

[SShepherd]

Doc, I'm wondering where the left/gay outrage is when this happened:
2008
http://youtu.be/N6K9dS9wl7U

yet, no outcry...no boycot..AND he got elected by them.

pretty hypocritical

[Oz and Fert]

you seem fixated on hatred. You need to re read john 3:16..
Fred preaches hate, and condones it- plain and simple. NOWHERE does it say christians are to hate anyone.
I'm don't with you, as you seem to condone hate.
Yes God so loved the world and sent His Son in John 3:16. There is also a verse, those who believe in Him will be saved. In order to trust in Jesus, you must to get rid from your sins to please God. Without repentance from sins and doing God's Will, your Faith is dead. Jesus died for God's elects. The elects are any depraved sinner who accepts Jesus into life and get rids of his or her sins for God's Kingdom. God loves humbled hearths.Thanks.

[Oz and Fert]

“Americans in the marketplace should not be subjected to legal attacks for simply abiding by their beliefs. Should the government force a videographer who is an animal rights activist to create a video promoting hunting and taxidermy? Of course not, and neither should the government force this photographer to promote a message that violates her conscience. Because the Constitution prohibits the state from forcing unwilling artists to promote a message they disagree with, we will certainly appeal this decision to the New Mexico Supreme Court.”

Along the same lines::clap:

[SShepherd]

Yes God so loved the world and sent His Son in John 3:16. There is also a verse, those who believe in Him will be saved. In order to trust in Jesus, you must to get rid from your sins to please God. Without repentance from sins and doing God's Will, your Faith is dead. Jesus died for God's elects. The elects are any depraved sinner who accepts Jesus into life and get rids of his or her sins for God's Kingdom. God loves humbled hearths.Thanks.

yes, were not talking about sinners...were taking about how a christian should treat them. Saying "God hates fags" is neither humble or doing Gods work.

[Danang Sailor]

Loosing our freedom of religious speech is a possible thing in America. I many places it is almost hate speech to say it is not okay to be gay or God hates fags in defending Leviticus 18:22 and Romans 1 :25-32.

Living where the Westboro Baptist Church is located, and listening to all of the crap they spew, I can tell you beyond a
shadow of a doubt that "God Hates Fags" is hate speech. All that is necessary to be a "fag" in their eyes is to disagree with
them in any way, on any point. The local U.S. Coast Guard office is fully staffed with "fags" according to them; a single
USCG member asked one of them why they would have a child about three years old holding a sign bigger than he was
(trying to hold it is a better description) on a day when the temps were approaching 100, in an area where there was no
shade. The next day when they picketed, they had a new sign - "Fag Coast Guard".

Their signs are another thing; if this wasn't a soi disant "religious group" (they claim to be Baptists, but none of
the Baptist organizations recognize them) these signs could easily be considered public obscenity. Most of them depict
stick figures having anal sex; for some perverse reason, these signs are usually carried by the youngest kids.

Then there is the business of them picketing the funerals of military members who died overseas. They justify this by
claiming that these deaths are God's response to a home-made bomb a mental-health case used against their building about
20 years ago (their logic: home-made bomb = IED = God's Justice). It seems absurd that God would spend 20+ years
killing US troops in retaliation for a single bomb that killed no one and did less than $2000 damage to a building!

While you have a valid point in your post, using a quote from the inbred folks at Westboro (all the members of that "church"
are related) spoils your intent. It would be good to pick your quotes more carefully; identifying with them could easily
(and hopefully, wrongly) earn you a label as just another irrational bigot.

[Oz and Fert]

There no hate and I don't want to spew it. I always do my best to be an adequate and good forum user. Regarding saying God hates fags whether it might be from WBC or other Protestant church. If we take a look at KJV Bible and wander why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ancient towns ruled by gays. Genesis 19:1-29. Jude 1:7. And why does God mention in Leviticus 18:22, Romans 1:25-27,32, and in 2 Peter 2:12-13 by calling gays as natural brute beasts. Yes God hates any unrepentant sinner especially him who is indulged in gay sin. Unless any sinner repents from adultery, gay life, idolatry, etc, The Lord surely hates them, punishes them,and destroys them in Hell. God hates fags and other unrepentant sinners is not of WBC, pastor Phelps, or from individual street preacher. It is from The Bible and The Bible is from God and not from pastor Phelps or pastor Billy Sunday.

[SShepherd]

show me, where in the bible it says..word for word.."God Hates Fags"

I'm not sure if you don't see it , or don't want to see that what you are saying is hatefull. You, as a christian, are to set a living example. Spewing hatefull words isn't te way to do that. I'm pretty sure even Jack Vanimpe would agree with me.

[SShepherd]

here's an article that conveys what I'm trying to say.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/how-are-christians-to-treat-homosexuals-54886/

[FrancSevin]

This seems to be the gist of the landmark New Mexico controversy, boiled down to a single paragraph:

Which parallels the Chick-Fil-A nonsense currently afoot. Our Constitution clearly grants freedom of expression and religion to the individual. The Constitution does not, however, grant the government (whether federal, state or local) the right to impose a religious opinion upon the individual or otherwise coerce the individual to "feel" a certain way.


.

Precisely the point of Jefferson's letter to the Connecticut Baptist. The wall of Separation letter which has been incorrectly interpreted by the courts, in reverse.

It was Jefferson's belief that the church, and by extension it's pariishoners, would be protected from the government intervening in their policy and beliefs.

Bloomberg and his friends seem to think otherwise.

[SShepherd]

Precisely the point of Jefferson's letter to the Connecticut Baptist. The wall of Separation letter which has been incorrectly interpreted by the courts, in reverse.

It was Jefferson's belief that the church, and by extension it's pariishoners, would be protected from the government intervening in their policy and beliefs.

Bloomberg and his friends seem to think otherwise.
don't forget that idiot who left washington, Rahm:hammer:

[Kane]

here's an article that conveys what I'm trying to say.

Just a minute. In the spirit of the OP, Shep, Oz has every right to hate fags. And you, based upon your faith, have every right to do anything lawfully within your power in an attempt to change his mind, up to an including economic coercion. The government does not.

The government has no right to use the legal system or public regulation to "make" Oz stop hating fags, as long as is doing it lawfully. And there is no law against it.

Carry on.
.

[SShepherd]

Just a minute. In the spirit of the OP, Shep, Oz has every right to hate fags. And you, based upon your faith, have every right to do anything lawfully within your power in an attempt to change his mind, up to an including economic coercion. The government does not.

Carry on.
.
not since we have hate crime laws he doesn't :wink:

[Kane]

not since we have hate crime laws he doesn't :wink:See my tardy edit above. Oz has committed no crime, other than to have an opinion. The government has no right to use the legal or regulatory systems to make him stop hating fags ... to make him stop having an opinion.

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you and sometimes wish it did.
.

[SShepherd]

See my tardy edit above. Oz has committed no crime, other than to have an opinion. The government has no right to use the legal or regulatory systems to make him stop hating fags ... to make him stop having an opinion.

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you and sometimes wish it did.
.
hate crime...slippery slope...what you bet this is what the mayors are going to use as a basis for their arguement.

Kane, yes he has every right to an opinion even if it's misquided and wrong, and gives christians a bad name.:glare:

[Kane]

hate crime...slippery slope...what you bet this is what the mayors are going to use as a basis for their arguement.

Kane, yes he has every right to an opinion even if it's misquided and wrong, and gives christians a bad name.:glare:The government's only approach would be to use workplace laws against discrimination. But it would be difficult if not impossible to prove that Oz has discriminated against fags by, say, not hiring one. In the meantime, he can lawfully hate 'til the cows come home. A sorry way to live, I must agree.

[Oz and Fert]

Just a minute. In the spirit of the OP, Shep, Oz has every right to hate fags. And you, based upon your faith, have every right to do anything lawfully within your power in an attempt to change his mind, up to an including economic coercion. The government does not.

The government has no right to use the legal system or public regulation to "make" Oz stop hating fags, as long as is doing it lawfully. And there is no law against it.

Carry on.
.
That's true. The government has no rights to violate The 1st Constitutional Amendment that mandates free speech and rights to practice religious views. We surely do not push our right wing Christian beliefs down other's throats, if they got their choices to refuse and to disagree with us. The worst thing that is destroying America now, is The Left who want to push all kind of filth down American ppl throats and to subvert the values of The 1st Amendment along with The 2nd. That's tragic.

[Oz and Fert]

show me, where in the bible it says..word for word.."God Hates Fags"

I'm not sure if you don't see it , or don't want to see that what you are saying is hatefull. You, as a christian, are to set a living example. Spewing hatefull words isn't te way to do that. I'm pretty sure even Jack Vanimpe would agree with me.
Word fag (faggot) means a bundle of dry stick to kindle the fire, also a part for fire fuel. We all read in The KIV Bible how God destroyed ancient towns of Sodom and Gomorrah in the days of Lot for their lusts of GLBT by burning them with fire and brimstone(sulfur). After God burned sodomites, He immediately casts their souls to Hell to endure the fire of the damned for ever and ever. Gays are called faggots or fags for short as bundles of dry sticks to kindle fire of God's Wrath in Hell for their refusal to repent from their gay sins on Earth.
I don't hate gays and other sinners,because we are all are not made righteous in God's Jurisdiction. All of us deserve Hell for sure for what we did in our lives. Yes, we turned to Jesus and turned away from old lives of sins. We just warn gays and other sinners to repent to escape Hell. If we don't warn gays and other sinners about Hell, it means we hate them and are selfish. Faith without works is good as dead.Thanks.

[SShepherd]

Word fag (faggot) means a bundle of dry stick to kindle the fire, also a part for fire fuel. We all read in The KIV Bible how God destroyed ancient towns of Sodom and Gomorrah in the days of Lot for their lusts of GLBT by burning them with fire and brimstone(sulfur). After God burned sodomites, He immediately casts their souls to Hell to endure the fire of the damned for ever and ever. Gays are called faggots or fags for short as bundles of dry sticks to kindle fire of God's Wrath in Hell for their refusal to repent from their gay sins on Earth.
I don't hate gays and other sinners,because we are all are not made righteous in God's Jurisdiction. All of us deserve Hell for sure for what we did in our lives. Yes, we turned to Jesus and turned away from old lives of sins. We just warn gays and other sinners to repent to escape Hell. If we don't warn gays and other sinners about Hell, it means we hate them and are selfish. Faith without works is good as dead.Thanks.
don't start trying to play wordgames...

you know, and so do we the context to which you use the word "fag/faggot" You cannot find what I asked, because it's nowhere in the bible-whatever version you choose.

just stop

[Oz and Fert]

62847
Sign by street preacher Ruben Israel.

[Oz and Fert]

don't start trying to play wordgames...

you know, and so do we the context to which you use the word "fag/faggot" You cannot find what I asked, because it's nowhere in the bible-whatever version you choose.

just stop
Fine. No more arguments with you. Thanks.

[FrancSevin]

Fine. No more arguments with you. Thanks.


http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/attachment.php?attachmentid=62847&d=1343953478


Your entire position here forgets one very crucial point.

This is the misguided interpretation of a preacher.

I would not base my belief system on his teachings.

God hates no one.

Hate is an emotion of human fraillty and weakness. So if you believe in the Almighty, who is capable of all that is, then you logicaly have to accept,,,,He is incapable of the emotion.
If for no other reason than he does not need it.

It is asking a lot to lay the incredibily of such weakness on the Lord and is certainly presumptuios to place such a mantel on all of Christiandom.

But back to the OP;

The government has no right to do so either. Especialy OUR government which exits as the result of those who pursued religious freedom from the Imperial governments of Europe who, in league with the corrupted church, tried so desparately to coerce their belief system of what they presumed was in God's mind upon others. And used their political power to do so.

Our Constitution prohibits this.


As much if the mayors of Boston, San Francisco and now Chicago are trying to do. Now they are just political Parties looking for votes from a mad mob But inthe OP the case is in the New Mexican Courts and it will have more consequences than popular opinions at the polls.

It will effect law and the interpretation of the first amendment through the eyes of hate. If the court rules in favor of the gay's perspective here, it does so atcost to the freedom of non gays. The freedom of their life choice at the expense of the desires of the gay community.

[pirate_girl]

If we don't warn gays and other sinners about Hell, it means we hate them and are selfish. Faith without works is good as dead.Thanks.

Jesus loves all people.
As Christians, we are called to do the same.
If someone chooses to be gay, that is entirely their decision.
It's not your duty, mine or anyone else's to WARN someone about their wrong doing.
That's up to God Almighty.

That said, I don't approve of folks being outwardly gay in a flamboyant fashion.
But, love it love.
Let's leave the judgement of gays to God.
God's ways are not our ways.

'Works in faith' as I understand it doesn't include judging someone.

[Oz and Fert]

Jesus loves all people.
As Christians, we are called to do the same.
If someone chooses to be gay, that is entirely their decision.
It's not your duty, mine or anyone else's to WARN someone about their wrong doing.
That's up to God Almighty.

That said, I don't approve of folks being outwardly gay in a flamboyant fashion.
But, love it love.
Let's leave the judgement of gays to God.
God's ways are not our ways.

'Works in faith' as I understand it doesn't include judging someone.
Good. You got to read Psalm 5:5,7:11. Nahum 1:1-13.Romans 1:18-32.

[pirate_girl]

Good. You got to read Psalm 5:5,7:11. Nahum 1:1-13.Romans 1:18-32.
I've read the bible through a couple of times.
So what else ya got?
By the way, I'm a Catholic from the cradle.
That doesn't say much more than I've 'caught' most of what I've been taught, as nothing can be forced.

What I have caught is that;
God is merciful and kind.
He is a loving God.
His Son came to live amongst us to teach us to love the other just as He did, and does.
Miracles happen.
If Jesus were walking amongst us today, I think we'd all be surprised at what a cool dude he really is.
He is for me.
Because even though I am not the best person on the planet.. he loves me, You.. all of us.. ALL of us..
Just as we are.
:flowers:

[Oz and Fert]

I've read the bible through a couple of times.
So what else ya got?
By the way, I'm a Catholic from the cradle.
That doesn't say much more than I've 'caught' most of what I've been taught, as nothing can be forced.

What I have caught is that;
God is merciful and kind.
He is a loving God.
His Son came to live amongst us to teach us to love the other just as He did, and does.
Miracles happen.
If Jesus were walking amongst us today, I think we'd all be surprised at what a cool dude he really is.
He is for me.
Because even though I am not the best person on the planet.. he loves me, You.. all of us.. ALL of us..
Just as we are.
:flowers:
God is Love and His Mercy endures for ever. But He loves those who hear His calling, accept Jesus, and repent of their sins. To repent means not just asking Jesus to forgive you for your sins, repents means to turn away from sin for life. Those who reject Jesus and love their sins, on those the Love of God is absent. The Lord loves humble repentant hearts. You need to study TULIP of John Calvin.

[pirate_girl]

Those who reject Jesus and love their sins, on those the Love of God is absent. The Lord loves humble repentant hearts. You need to study TULIP of John Calvin.

No one loves sinning.
God isn't absent in the life of a 'sinner'.


Maybe you need to study the tenets of Christian Science/Mary Baker Eddy.

We acknowledge God’s forgiveness of sin in the destruction of sin and the spiritual understanding that casts out evil as unreal. But the belief in sin is punished so long as the belief lasts.

[Oz and Fert]

No one loves sinning.
God isn't absent in the life of a 'sinner'.


Maybe you need to study the tenets of Christian Science/Mary Baker Eddy.

We acknowledge God’s forgiveness of sin in the destruction of sin and the spiritual understanding that casts out evil as unreal. But the belief in sin is punished so long as the belief lasts.
It is a false doctrine. I am sorry. Jesus warned to beware of false prophets and teachers. Matthew 24:23. Galatians 1:6-10. 2 Corinthians 11:13-14.

[luvs]

oz & fert, Jesus died on the cross for our sins, according to my religion.
u mentioned the Lord punishing us with death. people pass away. it's fact, not a punishment.
i see no other attempting to force-feed thier religious beliefs onto others.
i am Roman Catholic. i am remaing that way.
i swear profusely, i've sinned, i can get very rude/mean if i see fit, have fought ppl, drank too much, i'm friends w/ a few gays, i have not attened Mass in awhile, etc.
i have faith that i'll make my way to the Heavens.

[Oz and Fert]

oz & fert, Jesus died on the cross for our sins.
u mentioned the Lord punishing us with death. people pass away. it's fact, not a punishment.
i see no other attempting to force-feed thier religious beliefs onto others.
i am Roman Catholic. i am remaing that way.
i swear profusely, i've sinned, i can get very rude/mean if i see fit, have fought ppl, drank too much, i'm friends w/ a few gays, i have not attened Mass in awhile, etc.
i have faith that i'll make my way to the Heavens.
I comprehend what you mean, but fortunately I don't force anyone here to follow my way of my beliefs. I just state my belief views. People have rights not to agree. I don't expect that somebody will get converted to my beliefs.

[luvs]

I comprehend what you mean, but fortunately I don't force anyone here to follow my way of my beliefs. I just state my belief views. People have rights not to agree. I don't expect that somebody will get converted to my beliefs.

then why must u post & post & post & post on it.......
we got the point, as was explained already.

[luvs]

nite-nite.

[pirate_girl]

Done.

[Danang Sailor]

It is a false doctrine. I am sorry. Jesus warned to beware of false prophets and teachers. Matthew 24:23. Galatians 1:6-10. 2 Corinthians 11:13-14.

I get it - any Christian who believes differently than you, or anyone of a different faith is doomed to Hell. Jews, Catholics (your posts convince me you aren't) have no hope, no matter how perfectly they live their lives. Your signature line says it all.

No wonder you are willing to quote Phred Phelps and His Phagot Fightin' Phools. Bigots of a feather. One of him is enough; ignore list, here you come.

[pirate_girl]

Don't fret Popeye.. just another person invited here to get the stuff stirring again.
That's what I think anyway..

[Danang Sailor]

Don't fret Popeye.. just another person invited here to get the stuff stirring again.
That's what I think anyway..

Lollie,

(I was going to send this to you as a PM, bur decided to toss it out here and see what kin of crap it stirs up.)

No doubt you're right, and it shouldn't cause me to fret ... but it still does, even though I know better. A person would need
to have been here for the entire twenty-one years Phearless Phred and his clan have been doing this. They give obscene
signs to toddlers too young to understand them; they label anyone who doesn't kiss the ass of the Great God Phred a
"fag"; they picket churches, stores, banks, offices - anywhere that they feel isn't 100% behind them; and they travel across
the country to spread their hate at the funerals of brave American service members who have died in the effort to
guarantee them the freedom to spread their quasi-religious offal.

And, they have taken steps to prevent being held personally accountable for their hate-mongering. If a person sues these
vermin, it is discovered that they have nothing to lose - literally. The core Phelps family lives in houses owned by
their "church", the vehicles they drive are also owned by the church, their ... well, you get the idea. They are a family of
lawyers (all but Phred - he was disbarred) that are so outside the pale that even ambulance chasers object if someone groups
them with the Phelps clan.

Many of my straight friends and acquaintances have "earned" the fag label just for the sin of disagreeing with them, on
any point; I wear that label myself. The difference is that for me it is akin to a badge of honor; to be considered an enemy
of those twisted, bigoted hate-mongers is a point of pride. Others have had business losses, as very few people want to
endure the incredibly ugly shouted epithets that are hurled at them if they dare to pass through one of those picket lines.

The Westboro Baptist [???] Church is a blot on the honor of an otherwise fine city; they have tainted the town's name to
the point where people from other places hear "Topeka, KS" and they don't think of decent place to raise a family, or a state
capital, or wheat - no, the first thing that comes to mind is Phearless Phred and His Phantical Phagot Phightin' Phools!

So, yes, I react quite badly to this sort of religious bigotry; it goes against the way I was raised, against my own moral
standards and is a perversion of the basic tenants of Christianity.




Side Thought: It always amuses me that so many of these bigots who claim to have accepted Jesus, the man who
preached love, compassion, and forgiveness, and incidentally actually abrogated many sections of the Hebrew Bible (ie, The
Old Testament) still crawl back to those books to prove their point. It would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

Side Thought 2: This persons uses "Oz" as a screen name. Since Kansas is often referred to by the name (Dorothy lived
here after all), could it be that he/she really is one of Phred's loyal minions?

[Kane]

Side Thought 2: This persons uses "Oz" as a screen name. Since Kansas is often referred to by the name (Dorothy lived
here after all), could it be that he/she really is one of Phred's loyal minions?
O Duh.

One cannot reach this level of bigotry without professional help, along with a zip code of 66604.
.

[Oz and Fert]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR4ZEXgtjd0
Well then. So these preachers who are not of WBC are "bigots".too????

[CityGirl]

Don't fret Popeye.. just another person invited here to get the stuff stirring again.
That's what I think anyway..
Twasn't me!!!!

[mak2]

Google Prince Lemon, he has several other screen names as far as I can tell even Phelps dont wanna have anything to do with him. But I really have not had much time to look for him. in fact I found this and several others in about 10 min last night.

http://www.godhatessinners.com/member.php?775-Prince-Lemon

[Oz and Fert]

Google Prince Lemon, he has several other screen names as far as I can tell even Phelps dont wanna have anything to do with him. But I really have not had much time to look for him. in fact I found this and several others in about 10 min last night.

http://www.godhatessinners.com/member.php?775-Prince-Lemon
Yes it is me. Are you a member of this God hates sinners forum, too?

[mak2]

No, not that forum, I just did a quick search on you last night and found several interesting things. Yes it is me. Are you a member of this God hates sinners forum, too?

[mak2]

Tell me why you are such a hater Oz? Maybe you are overcompensating a bit?

[Oz and Fert]

Tell me why you are such a hater Oz? Maybe you are overcompensating a bit?
I am not a hater, mak2. I just try my best to help people who love sins to be warned about Hell, so they need to repent. If we don't warn our neighbors that their wickedness will get them to Hell, it means we hate them. Warning people to repent is Love.

[mak2]

Your lack of love and compassion is destroying your message, to the point it makes the rest of Christianity look bad. Do you care about that?I am not a hater, mak2. I just try my best to help people who love sins to be warned about Hell, so they need to repent. If we don't warn our neighbors that their wickedness will get them to Hell, it means we hate them. Warning people to repent is Love.

[Oz and Fert]

Your lack of love and compassion is destroying your message, to the point it makes the rest of Christianity look bad. Do you care about that?
How can Christianity become bad, if it demands to tell people The Truth? If we say that God loves people for their rebellion against Him, we go against what is in The Bible in defiance of Psalm 5:5,7:11. Nahum 1:1-13. Romans 1:18-32. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and more. If people who hate The Truth, for them Truth is always hate.

[mak2]

I did not say Christianity became bad, I said your message did. You come across as a hater so not only does no one listen to you, it hardens their heart when other try to witness to them. Please stop. How can Christianity become bad, if it demands to tell people The Truth? If we say that God loves people for their rebellion against Him, we go against what is in The Bible in defiance of Psalm 5:5,7:11. Nahum 1:1-13. Romans 1:18-32. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and more. If people who hate The Truth, for them Truth is always hate.

[SShepherd]

About Prince Lemon

Biography:True Calvinist Baptist and Ultra-Right Wing politician.Proud supporter of pastor Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church..............................

[Oz and Fert]

About Prince Lemon

Biography:True Calvinist Baptist and Ultra-Right Wing politician.Proud supporter of pastor Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church..............................Yes I do support WBC,except one thing. I don't condone WBC at military funerals. Here only God has rights to judge whom to punish and whom to spare.

[muleman]

Sorry prince or fert or what ever you call yourself. You and fred and his bunch of heathens can all kiss my butt as I know you are going to hell. My god will judge me on my actions and how I treat people. I have no fear of his judgement when he chooses to take me.

[pirate_girl]

Google Prince Lemon, he has several other screen names as far as I can tell even Phelps dont wanna have anything to do with him. But I really have not had much time to look for him. in fact I found this and several others in about 10 min last night.

http://www.godhatessinners.com/member.php?775-Prince-Lemon




About Prince Lemon

Biography:True Calvinist Baptist and Ultra-Right Wing politician.Proud supporter of pastor Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church..............................

Figured as much.