I have a religious question that has left me wondering for a long time now...

[AwesomeDude]

Just like the title says, I have a religious question that has left me wondering for a long time now. If we can go to heaven just by having faith, then what's the point of not sinning?

[muleman]

Good point.:whistling:

[pirate_girl]

Just like the title says, I have a religious question that has left me wondering for a long time now. If we can go to heaven just by having faith, then what's the point of not sinning?
Dude, please..

[AwesomeDude]

Dude, please..

What? What's the big deal? I'm just asking a question that has left me wondering for awhile.

[AAUTOFAB1]

faith is harder to hide from God than it is from people,you can say you have faith and shout it from the mountain tops to all the people you see in this world but only god knows the truth, and getting in to heaven is between you and God.

[pirate_girl]

faith is harder to hide from God than it is from people,you can say you have faith and shout it from the mountain tops to all the people you see in this world but only God knows the truth, and getting in to heaven is between you and God.
:smile: :thumb:

[FrancSevin]

What? What's the big deal? I'm just asking a question that has left me wondering for awhile.

According to Christian Judeo faith, we are all sinners sir. Everyone of us.
That is a given. What you do about that in your life is in your heart.

That sir, is on you.

It is not goodness of works but the honest goodness of your heart.

A penitent man prostrates before his God. If you cannot do that, physicaly or mentally, then one must ask, is faith, trust, belief truely in your heart?

Prayers and best wishes with your quest

[TiredRetired]

You may want to read this. (http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/how_to_be_saved.html)

[Melensdad]

Just like the title says, I have a religious question that has left me wondering for a long time now. If we can go to heaven just by having faith, then what's the point of not sinning?

Not everyone believes in the "faith alone" argument.

Some believe in "by scripture" they will be saved. Its commonly called "sola scriptura" while others believe in "actions or deeds" as being what is needed to be saved. Still others combine the 3 and believe that salvation requires faith, living a good life, and following the scriptures too.

So if you define "by faith alone" as the criteria for your faith then I can honestly say I don't know!

[loboloco]

Ok, I am going to assume this is a serious question. Having studied the christian and Catholic tenets, the assumption is that man is born into sin without 'saving grace'. This saving grace is a belief in God and that Jesus is his Son, sacrificed to pay the debt for your sins. Part of the christian faith is that true belief will earn you the right to enter heaven, but part of that belief would be to live your life in a way that attempts to lessen your 'burden' before God. Thus a Christian, though they will still sin, will make an honest effort not to do so because this reduces the burden you place upon your Savior. this would be done mostly from love of God and his Son, rather than fear of the consequences.

[FrancSevin]

Morning prayer,

Dear Lord, I know that I am a sinner, but so far today, have done my best to live in your blessing and in your way. I have not cussed anyone,spoken your name in vain, stolen anything, hurt another soul. I have not once given in to temptation to lust or turn my back to you.

So far today I have lived the life you would wish and truely wish do my best to honor you all the rest of this day..

But, still I am a sinner. In a moment, I will be rising from my bed.

I'm gonna need a little help.

Thanks.

We are all born elevated with thegrace of innocence. then we are given the knowledge and free will to decide our fate. Having last minute faith, or belief alone, is like riding a crashing airplane to the ground. You cannot simply take comfort inthe belief that at the last second, you can just step off and be saved.

[SShepherd]

The good news of the gospel can be summed up in the words of Paul to the Ephesians, “for by grace have ye been saved
through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God...” (Eph. 2:8). Grace means a free and unmerited gift or

favor. “The New Testament writers use “
charis” preeminently of that kindness by which God bestows favor even upon
the ill-deserving and grants to sinners pardon of their offences and bids them accept of eternal salvation through Christ”
(J. H. Thayer, Greek Lexicon, p. 666). Grace is God’s part in our salvation. Faith is our response to God’s grace.


good works do not get you into heaven

[Catavenger]

If you really have faith that means that you love the Lord and want to please him. If that is the case you would not wish to keep sinning and hurting the Lord.

[Kane]

Hell is probably full of those that have been faithfully Baptized. Unrepentant sinners.

[mtmogs]

Thought we had a good discussion going here...what happened?

[mtmogs]

Okay, now I see. I found Google's cache of some of the posts. Why were these deleted? I mean it's not like I burned your Koran, er I mean "Bible," just some dissenting opinions.

[Cowboy]

Okay, now I see. I found Google's cache of some of the posts. Why were these deleted? I mean it's not like I burned your Koran, er I mean "Bible," just some dissenting opinions.
The forum had a crash a few days ago so Doc had to go back in time a few days. Nothing was deleted on purpose that I am aware of. :wink:

[Doc]

Thought we had a good discussion going here...what happened?

Okay, now I see. I found Google's cache of some of the posts. Why were these deleted? I mean it's not like I burned your Koran, er I mean "Bible," just some dissenting opinions.

The forum had a crash a few days ago so Doc had to go back in time a few days. Nothing was deleted on purpose that I am aware of. :wink:

Cowboy is right. Nothing was deleted because of content. We had a server crash which corrupted the database. In a hurry to bring it back up I messed up and missed a whole lot of images from as far back as 6 years ago. Some were history threads with build projects which were invaluable. I was able to recover and get the pics back but we lost a few days of posts. Anything you find in google cache please feel free to re post it all here to keep the discussion going.

[mtmogs]

Divine intervention? Rather mild punishment for what I should be expecting. Good Christians, let the stones fly!

-from Leviticus 24

24:11 And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name of the Lord, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:)
24:12 And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be shewed them.
24:13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
24:14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
24:15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

[TiredRetired]

Cowboy is right. Nothing was deleted because of content. We had a server crash which corrupted the database. In a hurry to bring it back up I messed up and missed a whole lot of images from as far back as 6 years ago. Some were history threads with build projects which were invaluable. I was able to recover and get the pics back but we lost a few days of posts. Anything you find in google cache please feel free to re post it all here to keep the discussion going.

New one on me. Trolls want to know why stuff is deleted. :yum:

[TiredRetired]

Divine intervention? Rather mild punishment for what I should be expecting. Good Christians, let the stones fly!

-from Leviticus 24

24:11 And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name of the Lord, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:)
24:12 And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be shewed them.
24:13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
24:14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
24:15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

Good to see you're reading the bible. That's a nice first step. :unsure:

[mtmogs]

The Bible is interesting reading insofar as it offers a glimpse of society during the Bronze Age. However, I find it's tales of violence, sexual depravity, and man's inhumanity toward his fellow man are unrivaled in the history of literature, and I find it a bit extreme for entertainment purposes. If ever there were books to be banned from libraries, it would surely be the ribald and gory tales of the old testament.

[Danang Sailor]

The Bible is interesting reading insofar as it offers a glimpse of society during the Bronze Age. However, I find it's tales of violence, sexual depravity, and man's inhumanity toward his fellow man are unrivaled in the history of literature, and I find it a bit extreme for entertainment purposes. If ever there were books to be banned from libraries, it would surely be the ribald and gory tales of the old testament.

If you have problems with the Torah, you had best stay away from the last half of the Qur'an. Not much in the way of
titillating sex, but if you eliminate the violence and inhumane treatment of others there's nothing left.

[TiredRetired]

If ever there were books to be banned from libraries, it would surely be the ribald and gory tales of the old testament.

Funny, I always felt it should of been Lady Chatterley's Lover by D.H. Lawrence.

[mtmogs]

No doubt D.H. Lawrence had a gift for transforming porn into literature, but he ain't got nothin' on Ol' Ezekiel (make sure the kids aren't looking over your shoulder):

Ezekiel 23:19-21
19 Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.
20 For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.
21 Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.

Issue? Ewwww!

[mtmogs]

Not much in the way of titillating sex, but if you eliminate the violence and inhumane treatment of others there's nothing left.


It's all the same to me, the Torah, KJB, Koran, Ovid, Parthenius, Book of Mormon, Dianetics, and so on. All mythology and/or science fiction, just some more readable than others.

[SShepherd]

It's all the same to me, the Torah, KJB, Koran, Ovid, Parthenius, Book of Mormon, Dianetics, and so on. All mythology and/or science fiction, just some more readable than others.

so then what exactly is your point ? You obviously have your mind made up to be an athiest. Are you just trying to incite a flamewar through condecention?

yup, we all can have an opinion as long as you're respectfull of others.

[SShepherd]

The Bible is interesting reading insofar as it offers a glimpse of society during the Bronze Age. However, I find it's tales of violence, sexual depravity, and man's inhumanity toward his fellow man are unrivaled in the history of literature, and I find it a bit extreme for entertainment purposes. If ever there were books to be banned from libraries, it would surely be the ribald and gory tales of the old testament.


really..............I suggest you read more

entertainment ?

Banning books? Who/where did that come from ? That sounds like a favorite theme of communist states.

[pirate_girl]

The Bible is interesting reading insofar as it offers a glimpse of society during the Bronze Age. However, I find it's tales of violence, sexual depravity, and man's inhumanity toward his fellow man are unrivaled in the history of literature, and I find it a bit extreme for entertainment purposes. If ever there were books to be banned from libraries, it would surely be the ribald and gory tales of the old testament.
Yeah, I figured you'd get to the OT sooner or later.
There are many books in the Old Testament that sustain believers.
However, the New Testament is where true believers get their inspiration to live their lives according to God's plan.
Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the OT.

[FrancSevin]

The Bible is interesting reading insofar as it offers a glimpse of society during the Bronze Age. However, I find it's tales of violence, sexual depravity, and man's inhumanity toward his fellow man are unrivaled in the history of literature, and I find it a bit extreme for entertainment purposes. If ever there were books to be banned from libraries, it would surely be the ribald and gory tales of the old testament.


That's twice in this coversation,you have insulted the Bible. To what purpose?
Such desrepect it unwarranted and does not provide for, as you suggested earlier, "a good conversation."
The stories of the bible,whether they be fact or fiction, are a narrative of man's relationship with his family, neighbors, enemies, friends,government and,,,,his God.

The stories of the bible are not Epics of sainthood and blessed innocence but of the challenges of being real people. They would reflect all of our fallacies weaknesses, mistaken choices and sins. Otherwise the stories would not be a relatable documentary of life lessons.

The Bible is not the invention of a single mind distubed or brilliant. But of many contributors and hardly in the class of Chaucer, Canterbary Tales, or any single author. It should not be compared as such.

I would ask that with all due respect,,,,you have some.

[pirate_girl]

Nice post, Franc :)

[mtmogs]

That's twice in this coversation,you have insulted the Bible. To what purpose?
Such desrepect it unwarranted and does not provide for, as you suggested earlier, "a good conversation."
The stories of the bible,whether they be fact or fiction, are a narrative of man's relationship with his family, neighbors, enemies, friends,government and,,,,his God.

The stories of the bible are not Epics of sainthood and blessed innocence but of the challenges of being real people. They would reflect all of our fallacies weaknesses, mistaken choices and sins. Otherwise the stories would not be a relatable documentary of life lessons.

The Bible is not the invention of a single mind distubed or brilliant. But of many contributors and hardly in the class of Chaucer, Canterbary Tales, or any single author. It should not be compared as such.

I would ask that with all due respect,,,,you have some.

To what purpose? Maybe just to lament that mythology plays such a central role (at the expense of reason), not only in our country, but in other countries as well...especially those that have weapons of mass destruction or those that may soon to acquire them. Folks, the time is getting late for us to be guided by blind faith and superstition with such destructive power at our fingertips. I have no respect for the deliberate closing of one's mind. Sorry, faith is no virtue.

Old TJ is surely rolling over in his grave...

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

[pirate_girl]

Sorry, faith is no virtue.

Old TJ is surely rolling over in his grave...

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
According to YOU, maybe.

As for the Jefferson quote, that's ancient.. and a little screwy.

[SShepherd]

Alexander Hamilton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
--Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.


Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii."The Bible ... is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed."
--Sketches of the Life and Character of Patrick Henry, p. 402.


John Witherspoon
Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Clergyman and President of Princeton University
"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.
What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.


John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.



Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237."I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

[SShepherd]

Jefferson at times claimed to be a christian, but in reality was an athiest. With that being said he's also quoted here;
No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and people so demoralized [lacking good morals] and depraved as to be incapable of exercising a wholesome control, their reformation must be taken up ab incunabulis. Their minds [must] be informed by education what is right and what wrong, be encouraged in habits of virtue and deterred from those of vice by the dread of punishments, proportioned indeed, but irremissible. In all cases, follow truth as the only safe guide and eschew error which bewilders us in one false consequence after another in endless succession. These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure of order and good government. – Thomas Jefferson to John Adams (1819. ME 15:234)Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted. – Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, (1815. ME 14:283)
To put it in today's language, it was Jefferson's conviction that by nature, people are depraved, immoral and lacking self-control. He therefore believed that the only way that the American style of government could be maintained was to instruct everyone in right and wrong from birth, and train them toward good habits and virtue through disciplinary consequences. Political self-government, he said, requires that citizens be raised to despise dishonesty and embrace personal integrity through instruction and repeated admonitions. Religion and reason, he said, form the basis for our nation's foundations.
Thomas Jefferson and the other founders built our nation upon Christian principles and ethics, and warned that America would morally disintegrate if it forsook its "religious" roots. Although such a foundation could not make our nation "Christian," we would be wise to listen to our predecessors and embrace our Creator and the Bible that communicates how to walk in morality and virtue.

so, in reality you actually counter yourself in trying to use Jefferson when wishing for, " Folks, the time is getting late for us to be guided by blind faith and superstition with such destructive power at our fingertips. I have no respect for the deliberate closing of one's mind. Sorry, faith is no virtue.

as far as respect, it works both ways and you don't have a corner on the market. I honestly fear more that a person such as yourself would be in control of a weapon of mass destruction.

[Catavenger]

Many other posts were deleted.

[FrancSevin]

To what purpose? Maybe just to lament that mythology plays such a central role (at the expense of reason), not only in our country, but in other countries as well...especially those that have weapons of mass destruction or those that may soon to acquire them. Folks, the time is getting late for us to be guided by blind faith and superstition with such destructive power at our fingertips. I have no respect for the deliberate closing of one's mind. Sorry, faith is no virtue.

Old TJ is surely rolling over in his grave...

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."

Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

So,you are one of those who believes that Tom Jefferson, being a
philosopher with a open mind, who published many ideas accrross a broad spectrum, can be quoted out of context, to prove he did not believe in God.

Nice try. But he can be quoted far more often, in context,as a believer. His core beliefs were that God did exist. The story of it as written in the scriptures may, or may not be provable as written. His speculative point of that letter.

Based on that, I'm sure he is now laughing at such foolishness as yours.

Jefferson, was also a philanderer ,and adulterer and a capitalist. Along with owning slaves, he has much to answer for. But not to you and me. One could chose anyone of those "sins" and lay claim that your esteemed philosopher was a fake.

And none of it diminishies his faith in our country, our it's God.


That said, Jefferson's comments here do not excuse, much less defend, your disrespect.:hammer:

[FrancSevin]

Jefferson at times claimed to be a christian, but in reality was an athiest. With that being said he's also quoted here;
No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and people so demoralized [lacking good morals] and depraved as to be incapable of exercising a wholesome control, their reformation must be taken up ab incunabulis. Their minds [must] be informed by education what is right and what wrong, be encouraged in habits of virtue and deterred from those of vice by the dread of punishments, proportioned indeed, but irremissible. In all cases, follow truth as the only safe guide and eschew error which bewilders us in one false consequence after another in endless succession. These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure of order and good government. – Thomas Jefferson to John Adams (1819. ME 15:234)Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted. – Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, (1815. ME 14:283)
To put it in today's language, it was Jefferson's conviction that by nature, people are depraved, immoral and lacking self-control. He therefore believed that the only way that the American style of government could be maintained was to instruct everyone in right and wrong from birth, and train them toward good habits and virtue through disciplinary consequences. Political self-government, he said, requires that citizens be raised to despise dishonesty and embrace personal integrity through instruction and repeated admonitions. Religion and reason, he said, form the basis for our nation's foundations.
Thomas Jefferson and the other founders built our nation upon Christian principles and ethics, and warned that America would morally disintegrate if it forsook its "religious" roots. Although such a foundation could not make our nation "Christian," we would be wise to listen to our predecessors and embrace our Creator and the Bible that communicates how to walk in morality and virtue.

so, in reality you actually counter yourself in trying to use Jefferson when wishing for, " Folks, the time is getting late for us to be guided by blind faith and superstition with such destructive power at our fingertips. I have no respect for the deliberate closing of one's mind. Sorry, faith is no virtue.

as far as respect, it works both ways and you don't have a corner on the market. I honestly fear more that a person such as yourself would be in control of a weapon of mass destruction.

Sorry SShepard, but at worst Jefferson could be called a doubter. At best Jefferson could be called an agnostict. He did not deny the existance of God.

Washington was supposedly a man of absolute truth. "I cannot Tell a lie" yet he was a military master of deceit. We can cut out which ever two dimensional character moment, to suit our argument, on any member of the Founders. Whom, like all believers, sometimes dabled in intelectual doubt.

A Healthy practice which generaly renews ones faith.

At any rate, posting such musings by our Founders proves nothing about the existance of God.

[SShepherd]

No franc, it was simply a counter to the supposition that the founding fathers of our country somehow were "anti-religion".

Here's a thought..
is it a lie, or is it a military tactic ?

[FrancSevin]

No franc, it was simply a counter to the supposition that the founding fathers of our country somehow were "anti-religion".

Here's a thought..
is it a lie, or is it a military tactic ?

Your point is taken.

I find it ammusing that the words of the founder's who went to extremes to reason and provide a foundation for religious toleraance, are often dco-opted to prove they were somehow Atheist or anti religion.

One has to be totaly ignorant of the contemporay conditions onthe ground, at the time of the Revolution, to suggest such a concept.

But again I would suggest, that such discussion proves, or disproves, nothing towards the existance of a God. Those who would use the words of a revered patriot to argue against His existance are proposing a emotional, but false, Red Herring narrative.

The importance of God in our Nation's founding is important to our nation.Has been for over it's entire 230 years. But, his importance to mankind has been documented for over 7 thousand years. Our nation is but a blink in His time.

And therefore, my point, the USA proves or disproves little or nothing of His existance.

On the other hand, the corruption, dispite his influence on our noble founding, proves the the basic inherent evil of man. Since the time of Saul, people prefer a King over their God, for a day to day reckoning of government and leadership.

And now, despite the original intention of the Founders, we have one. And we elect or re-elect him every four years.

[TiredRetired]

The thing I find most amusing about athiests is their desire and willingness to ridicule the tenets of our faith. Maybe that is an offshoot of the fact that many of them, but not all certainly, are liberal leaning in their general outlook on things and that type of behaviour is typical of them. See something you do not agree with or like and it must be changed, irregardless of other persons beliefs or desires.

Want to be an athiest? Your choice. Am I going to ridicule your beliefs? Nope. Am I going to try and change your mind. Yup, sure am. I'm going to pray for you. Get my point?