G.I.A. Fast Forward [Archive] - Forums Forums

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 02:43 PM

It seems that Greatest I Am will recycle a post from one of the many forums he is on and just when you think he's down and the discussion as settled down, he will cut and paste another. I figured I would just fast forward and get them all knocked out as soon as I can find them.

Are all discussions of God speculative nonsense?

Many quote God’s WORD as coming from God’s own mind somehow yet that same WORD says that God is unknowable, unfathomable and mysterious. That same WORD is full of contradictions which may help demonstrate that God truly does work in mysterious, illogical ways.

Those who say they know the mind of God, lie, if the Bible is to be believed. According to it, God is un-knowable.

Many claim a personal relationship to their God yet few will admit apotheosis.
Are you/they lying if no actual personal contact has occurred?

Are all discussions, of any God, just speculative nonsense, or can a man actually know something of God’s thinking?

Are we all just spinning our wheels in discussions.

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 02:43 PM

Another.

Theists. Does this do anything to you consciousness?

I direct this question more to literalists and fundamentals who read the Bible literally. Others of course are welcome to comment.
Let me point out that I think of the Bible as a book of wisdom that it is a consolidation of many of the older religions of that day and is a good book to help us seek God by analyzing the old myths. If read literally, the reader will miss out on the rather wonderful thinking stimulated by it and miss the purpose that the book was put together point to. I do not disrespect it but have little respect for literal readers for that reason. They end up idol worshiping a book of myths.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYigm...ature=youtu.be

This scholar speaks to the archeology that is killing the historicity of the Bible.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...0864215926514#

This scholar is showing the plagiarizing and or forgeries of scriptures.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mpHp...mbedded#at=437

It is interesting to note that both of these prominent scholars came from fundamentalist religions before their research, as well as the scholars they quote, changed their overall views.

They, like myself do not want to dissuade the search for God but only want to point out that God may be bigger than the pigeon hole/Bible that theist have put him in. As a religionist, to me, God is big enough to be everyone’s God. Not just a chosen few. Theists should like this notion because then, God, if real, remains now, as in the beginning, master of all and not just master of some.

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 02:44 PM

Who is the epitome of Evil, God or Satan?

Though shalt place no one above me. Satan did not as he followed God’s instructions with Job. He was firmly under God’s control.

Many have jumped through hoops to make anyone other than God the most evil in existence yet scripture says that God gets the Gold star in all categories. Even as the most evil. After all, he is said to have created the concept of law. The Word. All Goods and Evils. The first divisive tool for social manipulation and control.

The Sneetches by Dr. Seuss (clip) - YouTube

God is said to have just about all attributes that man has been able to imagine.
God has been reduced to our wish list. Including the creator of an everlasting hell to entertain our more hateful wishes.

God is still ashamed of what he has wrought as in the days of Noah.
Mythical Noah the is. Even after using genocide to reboot his systems. Strange. Another failure. God, if he were real, seems to have two messages for us.
Do as you are told and do not think too much. Hence faith to drive away logic and reason.

As the epitome of Evil, Satan runs a poor second place to God.
Have we put the blame for creations evils on the created, Satan, when it was God, who, as the epitome of Evil, shirked his duty of taking responsibility for what he as God sowed.
That also would mean that Bishop John Spong was right and God is guilty of child abuse by putting the responsibility for his works on Jesus.

Do as I say and not as I do is God’s policy.
I also would argue against his policy or rewarding what he calls rebellion. I E. Giving Satan dominion over mankind and rewarding Cain with a kingdom for murder.
Not a good thing for the law maker to do.
Two stains on his Gold star.

Is God the epitome of evil?
Is that the moral lesson of the flood myth?
What does that say of the literalists who follow Noah’s God and think that genocide is good justice?

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 02:46 PM

Why do you follow a genocidal God?

Bible God, the un-knowable one, has been described in scriptures by someone claiming to know much of the un-knowable God. How the un-knowable can be know has yet to shown. On reading scriptures, some have concluded that Bible God is quite immoral.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK1Db...6727A34E740D99

I tend to agree based on moral reasons and would like to keep the discussion on morality without going into whether God is real or not. Something that we cannot prove. We can prove though whether we think Bible God acted morally or not.

The first followers of Bible God, the Jews, also seem to agree with Dawkins and myself.

God on Trial: The Verdict - YouTube

Genocide, or attempted genocide is considered by most to be a low moral position.

Followers of a Hitler or Stalin, who would try to justify their genocidal actions, would not be well received by most of us.

Why then do you think that we should join you in following a God who takes the moral low ground of genocide instead of doing the right moral thing and curing instead of killing those he thinks defective?

As a religionist myself, I can understand seeking God but why would we want to seek, or follow a genocidal one?

What attracts you to a genocidal God?
Is it just that might makes right?

We are to emulate God.
Does that mean that you too would use genocide as a form of what most believers think of as good justice?

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 02:47 PM

Was Jesus a victim of self aggrandizing suicide?

http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...ideos/07451_00

My position is simple.
To offer or be a scapegoat for others who will not step up to their own responsibilities and consequences for their action is immoral and self aggrandizing. I see mythical Jesus as doing just that.

To accept the sacrifice of a scapegoat Jesus and to try to profit from his death is also immoral.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYaQp...eature=related

Scripture indicates, Trinitarians aside, that God the Father sent his son to die for mankind to fulfill a need that God himself created. That of a blood sacrifice to forgive sin when he has the power to forgive sin without it.

Nothing but the blood? - YouTube

As above so below.
For us to believe that God would plan for and send his son to die, we would have to think it normal and good for a father to bury his son. Any good man would reject such an example of good conduct as definitely not good, natural or moral. Any God the father, or earthly father, worth his title, would step up himself for such a task yet Bible God takes the cowardly route and sends his son. What a pathetic God. What pathetic followers he also has who would think that this is the way things should be.

Eze 18;20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psa 49;7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Do you recognize the immorality of believers using Jesus as a scapegoat and of them trying to profit from his murder?

If his death was a suicide, which is the way I see it, is it moral for believers to try to profit from his pathetic self aggrandizing sacrifice?

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 02:48 PM

Faith without works and proof is false faith.

Scriptures, on the issue of works, contradict each other.

Some scriptures and Christian sects push the notion that faith alone in God is all that is required to earn heaven.
Some scriptures indicate that without works, living the theology and applying it to reality, that whatever faith we claim to have is useless and that those souls are lost.

The notion of being part of a community where individuals looked out for each other and shared whatever it had was the key and the only reason Christianity became the religion that it is today. I mean this in the sense or size only. In reality, Christianity no longer bases it’s theology and being saved on works.

Perhaps this is why the Church is so fragmented today and losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the population.

People usually do what they see as profitable in one way or another for themselves. Today, looking at Christianity, from inside or outside, the population does not see a profit in remaining in or joining Christianity due to this notion that faith is all that is required.

Without works, will Christianity die?
Do you have to live your faith or is faith without works and good deeds good enough?

What was it that James told Peter.
Demons have faith in God and it is likely stronger than man’s faith because they know for certain of God’s reality yet it does them no good. Faith, belief that is not based on proof, is thus useless.

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 02:51 PM

Are Evangelicals and conservative Christians the Anti-Christ?

In the tribal conditions of the ancient world, it is not surprising that Christians would be hated.

Revelation shows the destruction of all except God’s chosen. Evangelicals and literalists, pray for this genocidal destruction to happen in their lifetimes. That is a lot of hate coming from those who profess to love all of mankind. Some would say that these so called Christians, are not of good heart and do not follow their own religion, bible or a loving Christ.

Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Some would in fact say that these Christians are traitors to the society they hate.

In the old tribal days, and even today, those who do not believe as Evangelicals, literalists and conservative Christians do, would see these as traitors and haters and would get their backs up, as most humans being would automatically do, and hate these Christian traitors right back. It is no wonder then, and some ancients would say quite fittingly, that these traitors should be fed to the lions. Hate being returned for the hate that these Christians show to society.

It is not too surprising then to see why Christians were persecuted in the old days. They deserved it as far as the other tribes were concerned as they were showing hate for all others in wishing and praying for their death in this life as well as everlasting torture for eternity in the next.

What a game for your God to play if such were true!
Create a place for eternal bliss as well as a place for eternal suffering.
Then create beings whom he loves dearly and watches over.
And in the end, decide which to consider "trash" and "throw away" into the place for eternal suffering and which to cling to and love in the place for eternal bliss.
Even man, with all his faults, is greater and more responsible.

Evangelicals and followers of Jesus should thank God that they live in a world that has lost some of it’s tribal ways, not themselves of course, and society allow these who hate them so much, to remain untouched in today’s environment.

These Evangelicals and literalist believers think themselves as followers of Christ yet Christ was of love while they are of hate. They are anti their own bible as shown with Rom 12;21. If the bible is the word of God as they believe it is, then they are anti-bible and therefore, biblically speaking, Anti-Christ. They definitely are not cut from the same cloth that Jesus was.

Are these Evangelicals and literalist believers the Anti-Christ of scripture?

Is the term traitors to humanity a fitting label for these misguided Christians?

Regards
DL

SShepherd

09-13-2011, 02:52 PM

lol, way to beat him to the punch..

I don't think he really wants an answer to his internet quest, he just wants to whine and complain and blaim someone else for whatever the flavor/issue of the day is.
it's easier to blaim someone else than own your situation and fight to rise above it

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 02:52 PM

In the beginning, the temple resembled a hoar house.

In studying ancient history of the advances of technology used in temples, and knowing that the first prostitutes were temple prostitutes, and also knowing that alcohol and psychotropic drug use was common, I tried to envision the reality of just what the temple and early religion was all about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrI1F...eature=related

Ancient temple inventions meant to fool people - YouTube

We generally envisage a large building that held many but in truth, the early churches where more like the home churches used today in smaller communities. I think they may have begun as places of worship but to early man, worship looked quite different than it does today.

Churches latter expanded along with the populations and used the latest technology to draw the crowd and the best technology and God would win the hearts of the patrons. These patrons were mostly poor people and for them to be persuaded to part with their hard earned wealth took the best effort that science and persuasion powers of the priests could muster.

The temple then, by the time Jesus came along to throw his temper tantrum, was a place of commerce, theatre for myth reading, partying and prostitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_prostitution

http://www.truthcontest.com/entries/...y-reality.html

Just how important the theology of whatever God was worshipped we can never know. We can assume, because of the vast number of Gods that their theology was not important to them as they changed from one God to the other. We can know that the wealth that the temples amassed was earned with methods, that many today, would consider rather odious. They were more like carnivals, speak easies and hoar houses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_prostitution

There is a hint in the following--

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...+6&version=KJV

where the writer seems to be bemoaning the use of these various delights yet not quite calling them illegal.

Even when I was young, the small local church was where I learned of drinking, partying and key clubs. It was rumored that every church had a key club but I have no direct proof of this last. Drinking and drugs though, I can vouch for.

From such is where our, ever so proper moral religions were born. From what we today would call immoral activity. Sacrifice, indulgences, fees for drink and drugs and prostitution gave birth to religion and financed what we have today.

Was religion born of what we would call corruption?

Were the ancient battles between churches just what we would call turf wars for wealth and the various magic tricks that the churches used to compete with each other?

Today, with religions that are based on fantasy, miracle and magic, are priests just doing the same Flim-Fam job on believers for their wealth?

IOW. Are priests just con artists?

http://www.megavideo.com/?d=3D3511DE

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 02:53 PM

God 3%. Satan 97%. Does God needs a new marketing man?

Many Christians take the view that the Bible says only a few will be saved. There are verses which show just that. You know, the narrow road and the wide road. It also shows that God would have known ahead of time that his program of salvation would be a marketing disaster. Scripture says he is all knowing. Yet he carried on with his present plan rather than choose a different program which could have been a marketing coup and show him as a successful planer instead of a dismal marketing flop.

Why would God not put forward a successful marketing plan?

South park - Kenny go to hell - YouTube

It should have been quite easy for him. He had all the answers to any survey question he could have asked in order to gage the best approach to winning the hearts and minds of the population. Omnipotence includes infinite powers of persuasion and any sales or marketing man will know that with that at hand, anyone could deal with any objections to the sale, which is usually the only hindrance to the sale. In this case, selling us on the notion that he is God and should be followed.

Give those same tools to any fool and he would become the new Man/God of the whole world hands down. I am not saying that God is a fool but any marketing firm would fire his ass.

I find it quite strange that at the end of days, Satan will be sitting there in hell gloating over the fact that God has only a small % of all the souls he has created even as scripture says he created all of those souls perfect.
Perfect souls would of course make the perfect choice.
Perfect souls choosing who we are told is the bad guy? What the hell.

Poor God could not get out of heaven in the beginning without losing Satan and 1/3 of God’s angels. He could not get out of Eden without losing Adam and Eve. He could not impress all those of Noah’s day. Not even the dumb animals and even today, he is losing most of us to secular law instead of Biblical law.

Adam and Eve should have been a trophy for God as they did exactly what scripture says we should all do. Learn of good and evil and emulate him and be as bright as Gods. Yet when Adam and Eve became as Gods, God showed great displeasure and cursed everybody up and down including the earth. This I find really strange but then, God works in mysterious ways.
Perhaps that includes being a loser to Satan.
Can’t fight the Bible facts folks.

What do you think?

Does God need a new marketing man to reverse his dismal showing?

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 02:54 PM

Bible law exceeds God’s “Eye for an Eye” law.

From this fact, it follows that human institutions have placed themselves higher than God, in terms of what laws they will follow. This includes religious hierarchies. They all break the first commandment. All believers also break the first commandment if following secular law over God‘s.

There are ample examples in scriptures where the basic law of an eye for an eye is promoted. IOW, the penalty should suit the sin. A graduated scale of fault. A do onto others and brotherly love type of fiduciary thinking. Reciprocity is fair play type of thinking.

Lev 24;20
Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.

You might note that this passage indicates that man sins against man and shows that we do not and cannot sin against God. Forgiveness comes from man. God cannot be hurt by mere men.

There are also ample instances where the Bible urges us to kill our own for reasons that are less offensive and that do not meet the notions of the justice of an eye for an eye. Fornication and disrespecting parents being two of the many reasons to exact holy revenge by death. Exceeding an eye for an eye by a long shot. It is these more barbaric law that has helped secularism grow.

In following secular laws, we seem to be ignoring God’s laws and thus breaking the first commandment.
God. The word God, means many things to many people but at the root of your understanding of the meaning of that word-- should be rules for living a good life.

Secularism has wisely, chosen to discard some of the older notions and draconian laws.
As more people become educated to secular standards, religions will decline. God’s laws will die in the hearts of men.

Should believers of the Bible God follow God’s laws or the laws of man?
Does it break the first commandment or not if believers follow mans laws?

Is this an end to religion’s and God’s relevance in terms of law?
Is the mythical God no longer required for the best law?

Remember please that we are in 2011. Not 111.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94f2h...layer_embedded

Martin Sheen burns a hypo-christian - YouTube

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 02:55 PM

Are we living in God’s kingdom, or Satan‘s?

What did Jesus mean when He said “The Kingdom of God is at hand?

Mat 4;17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus seems to be saying that God’s kingdom was right there at that point in time and that would also mean that it is still here and now.

If God began by being master and owner of all that is, and he spans or owns the whole of creation, and scripture is right that says he does not change, then logic says that we are now in is God’s kingdom and we never left it.

Ps 139 8
If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Romans 12:21
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

These also seem to confirm that God is everywhere, even in hell, where he is working at saving lost souls and that would make the following quote also true.

2 Peter 3;9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Obviously, nothing and no one can thwart God’s will. He always gets what he wills even if at times we cannot understand how he does it. All souls are therefore saved and none perish.

Now I know some will say that there cannot be anything evil in God’s kingdom. Consider that Satan was in heaven before God made him the prince of this world. Therefore, there can definitely be evil in God’s kingdom. In fact, the myths of Eden and Job both show God consorting with Satan. In Eden, he allows Satan access to A & E and in Job, to Job.

If hell and earth are no longer in God’s kingdom, then that would mean that God lost some of his original holdings/kingdom, and I cannot see any good reason for him to change from full ownership of what was, to partial ownership of what is.

Are we living in God’s kingdom, or Satan‘s?

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 02:56 PM

Why do you have to believe in fantasy to believe in God?

Before you jump all over me, remember that I am not an atheist.
I believe in a Godhead that is of this world and the reality we see around us.
Mine is not the God you believe in because to believe in that one, one must buy into fantasy, miracles and magic. This I have no need or desire to do.

The O T, the base of the Bible, is a document that the original writers, the Jews, do not believe in a literal way.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/histor...tingexodus.htm

Lewis Black - The Old Testament - YouTube

Further, believers tend to believe what is written about God even as whoever is doing the writing admit that God is unfathomable and unknowable and works in mysterious ways. A catch 22.

As an adult, do you not think it strange and immoral that you would preach to and teach your children that there are real talking snakes and donkeys, that people can walk on water, turn staffs into snakes and that a loving God would use genocide against humans?

This being after nearly all of his perfect works have somehow become imperfect and thus showing a creator God who just cannot create creatures that will do as programmed.

These things that are impossible to believe unless you have bought into fantasy, miracles and magical thinking.

As far as the non believing world is concerned, there is no such thing as miracles and magic. No believer has ever been able to show or prove that any miracle has ever been performed and it would seem to me that if God wanted us to believe in them, he would have left one here for us to ponder. He did not.

If your God did not do all of the miracles shown in scripture, is there anything left that shows a real God?

God would always want what is best for him as well as what is best for man.

Note that 6 million of us starve to death yearly. A yearly holocaust.
If God does have all of these miracle making powers, how can things not be exactly the way he wants for both himself and man?

Now I know that many will point to free will, but because the Bible shows God ignoring man’s free will to live when he kills us all over the O T, this negates that argument so I hope no one bothers trying to use it.

If you believe in reality instead of fantasy and magic, does your God disappear?

Does God have to be able to do miracles to be your God?

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 02:57 PM

Can, and does God change?

Many seem to think that when scripture says that God is immortal and perfect, it means that God never changes his mind on anything and that his perfection is complete.
They use the following basic definition.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perfect

Scripture seems to contradict this definition. It shows a N T Jesus that must learn and an O T God who changes thanks to repenting.

In the real world, all things seem to evolve.

Is God a never changing stagnant pool of information or does he evolve the same as all other life?

If he was perfect and complete for millennia in the beginning, why would he suddenly feel a new urge to create and self glorify himself with the love of insignificant creations?

Where did his needs for adoration, belief, and obedience from, what to him, would be less than what an amoeba is to us?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdpcG...eature=related

Further, if his intent was to create many followers, why does scripture show more failed creations than successful ones?

South park - Kenny go to hell - YouTube

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 02:58 PM

A question on God and Indian giving.

You are given a gift, use it for a time, and then the one who gave you that gift takes it back without your permission or consent.

In other words, showing himself to be an Indian giver.

Would you call that a sin?
I call it a form of lying.

The giver is in effect saying, I am giving you this gift, when in reality, he is not, as demonstrated by his taking it back or away from you.
If not a lie, is that a sin and what is the sin called?

God himself in scriptures seems to do this regularly as he kills those he supposedly loves and takes away the free will gift he supposedly gave them. Their free will was obviously to live.

Is God an Indian giver?

Regards
DL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt2KN...eature=related

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 02:59 PM

God gave humanity to Satan as a gift and reward.

God, in the beginning, created all that was. He called it Eden and put adam in it. The lower case adam, means society. God later called us Adam and Eve, to designate and differentiate man and woman. That is likely why creation of man is shown twice in Genesis.

He then gave all of us to Satan as a gift and made him the ruler of this world as a reward. This maintains the illusion that God gave us free will. After all, free will means we are able to rule ourselves so God himself cannot call himself our ruler without negating our free will. We cannot do as we will if we are following his will. This is quite simple to understand.

Satan, the great deceiver, God’s favorite and glorious angel, was then given the power and instruction to deceive all of mankind. This is obviously why Satan and or the talking serpent were in Eden. God does not put a fox in the henhouse without good reason. The reason was to insure that Adam and Eve became as Gods. You will know that the loss of the tree of life is never shown as a loss anywhere in scripture. You likely know why.

Dogma says that God basically lost all control over mankind at that point and the absence of God, which many call evil and hell, attests to this as an irrefutable fact. Evil is definitely on earth and since God and evil is said to never be in the same place, we know that God is no longer here. We are on our own against Satan and his minions. A full third of the angels that God felt were good enough to be with his best, Satan.

Humanity is Satan’s beyond any doubt. He is the master and we are all slaves to sin.
God helps maintain this situation by insuring that all are born with original sin and sets our nature to do just that, sin.

Scripture is clear on these points. The big question is why?

This seems to be the only answer---------

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This tells me that we must all sin and repent, to not perish and insure that we are saved.

Colossians 1: 15 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

It does not take a rocket scientist to dither out that if God were to lose any of us, that would not please him. A God, who had miracle available, would always make sure that his will is never thwarted.

The following type of scenario is then never allowed.

South park - Kenny go to hell - YouTube

Those with any sort of faith should know this, but somehow, they follow dogma and a theology that says that God does lose some of us and that somehow, even with all those miracles at hand, Satan and man can thwart God’s will and desire to save us all. This is impossible.

It seems that this bishop is be correct.

'Hell' as an invention of the church - YouTube

If we are all to be deceived as scripture indicates, and the majority of the world has faith, logic says that if you have faith in Jesus, God or Allah, then your faith is a deception from Satan. Many say that Satan’s greatest deception or trick is to fool us into believing that he does not exist. The opposite seems to be true and that it is God who is no longer here on this evil world.

Doubt is a good quality. It wards of gullibility.

Should you doubt your faith or do you somehow think that your particular faith, whichever it is, is exempt from Satan’s God given power of deception and dominion over you?

Are you so arrogant that you will ignore Gods own prophesy, that all will be deceived, by not judging the God offered by your church?

Do you dare take that chance and not judge your God, by his actions, to know if you follow a moral God or not?

If deceived, how could we possibly know?

I think there is only one solution. That is, compared the two major forms of law and morality on the planet. Secularism and religions.
I follow secular law because Satan has deceived you people of faith because I see that you love to hate, and demand that there be a place of punishment instead of a place to cure those you and your false God believe to be lost souls.

This Gnostic Christian says that God is a good and moral God and he cures souls. He does not torture them. Any that have truly repented of their sins will know this to be a truth and know that God‘s will that none be lost cannot be thwarted. Even in his never ending absence. He will never return because of the fact of our free will. If we are doing His will, we cannot be exercising our free will. God wants free men. Not slaves.

Where is our master Satan then?
In our sin nature.
Where else could spirit entities live?

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 03:00 PM

Does God regularly reward rebellion?

God, in the beginning, rebelled against the status quo that he had lived in for millennia.
He rejected what was and created what we have today and gained a reward, pleasure. He was pleased and named it all good. To insure that the trend of rebellion continued, he brought Satan to earth and ordered him to tempt Adam and Eve. The only way Adam and Eve could know that they were autonomous entities was to go against God’s command.

Satan is said to be the first autonomous entity, other than God, to rebel. He was rewarded by being named the King of this world. God’s jewel and greatest achievement till that time. This truth is exemplified by his tempting Jesus by offering him the world. If it was not his world to give, there would not have been a temptation for Jesus to face and master. Mark 1: 13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan.

Adam and Eve were next to rebel. Their reward as we know was to be elevated to God like status. Genesis : 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. They were also given dominion of the earth, as is plain to see.

Moses, rebelled against Pharaoh and was also rewarded with a kingdom. Israel. Noah, rebelled against the rest of mankind and was rewarded with a new earth.

Jesus rebelled against the status quo of the written laws and was rewarded by being said to have saved the whole of mankind. Even as believers think only their pitiful little numbers are saved. A hold over from old tribal thinking.

There can only be one conclusion to what is written. God regularly rewards rebellion.

In heaven as on earth.
Mankind does the same. In these times in the middle east, we see much rebellion against authority, while we in the west are applauding their efforts and indeed, helping them to the best of our present capabilities.

We also have our own examples of the benefits of rebellion.
The U S rebellion against England. Canada’s rebellion against our own European masters. Our own rebellious hero’s such as Rosa Parks and Louis Riel. In these cases, not only personal fame was gained but also a betterment for all of us.

There can only be one conclusion here as well. Man regularly rewards rebellion.

Now the ancient Jews and Hebrew interpreted their scriptures of Eden as the elevation of mankind. To know good and evil, the root of our moral sense, and be as knowledgeable as God, was seen as a great benefit. Somehow, Christianity turned that view, which was consistent with the above precedent, to one of a fall for mankind.

This Gnostic Christian disagrees with the Christian view because, first of all, I would not want to live like a dumb animal, without a moral sense or being able to recognize good and evil at a level higher than instincts. Further, we all know that almost any topic or issue you can think of has good and evil implications and conditions and without knowledge of good and evil, we would not even be able to discuss much of anything and society would stagnate.

Rebellion, from the Christian viewpoint, is a sin and evil and Eden was our fall.
If we go with this view, we must see reality somehow going against Gods wishes and must see him as a loser.

If we go with Gnostic Christian, Hebrew and Jewish interpretations, we end with a God who is a winner.

God and mankind thus seem to benefit to a huge extent thanks to rebellion and sin.
Would our secular laws be as good as they are if people had not rebelled against the older religious laws and amended them to the degree we have?

Should Christianity and other non progressive religions, notably Islam, rebel against their more draconian laws and continue the trend of benefiting from rebellion?

Does God and man regularly reward rebellion?

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 03:01 PM

Should Christianity adopt Islam’s laws of sins of the flesh?

There is a fair bit of noise nowadays about Sharia law.

One Law for All rally: Demand one secular law and universal human rights - YouTube

I am not advocating Sharia law for our secular system but have to wonder if Christianity would be well served by adopting Sharia law for the Church.

Islam must change as it enters into secularism. It, like all Abraham based religions, need much improvements to their laws but, in terms of sins of the flesh, they may be above the Christian ethos. Abortion, infidelity, and other inappropriate sexual habits seem to be better handled by Islam. They have gone the wrong way in some of their cults, the so called rape law, exemplifies this, but I think that this is just a blip to their overall theology and will be rejected soon. Their homophobic stance also must change.

The spread and customs of abortion and unwed mothers in the west, as well as the numbers of men who do not do their duty to their children, is not good. Family values, although still healthy in the west, is taking a good beating. Perhaps it is time for Christianity to look at other religious systems including Islam, and adapt what it and others do to Christian families, if they find the new system better.
I would think that such a move would also be a good time for Christianity to redress their shameful religious discrimination and denigration of Gays.

I did not bother with statistics as I think that what I have said is well recognized as fact. The U S situation is well known. In this O P, I would include fornication, infidelity, prostitution, unwed mothers and abortion. Homosexuality, I do not consider as inappropriate sex but know that it will be expressed by the homophobes.

Should we recognize this better part of Islam, in terms of dealing with sins of the flesh, or should Christianity just continue with the dismal record that it presently has?

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 03:03 PM

Theists will never see the face of God. Giggle.

As a religionist of sorts, Gnostic Christian with a touch of Deist, I have to sometimes have a giggle at the position that believers in Bible God take.

Especially their more immoral positions as they accept Gods reasons for murdering or to them, just justly killing humans.

It is not funny but I giggle out of sadness for theists lack of thought and morals.

At the same time as I fight my own camp for their more bizarre thinking, I am attacked by atheists who see me as just as delusional as those who follow Bible God. I am in a rather unique position as you can see.

Having said that, I think all theists, especially those of the Abrahamic cults, Christians, Catholics and Muslims, need to chill a bit and not take religion so seriously. By doing so, you just make yourselves the laughing stock of the world. Laughter is good so I would like to share some with my fellow theist and atheist adversaries.

Those who follow Bible God, Christians, Catholics and Muslims, cannot ever tell what he looks like because of their vantage point.

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/a...ey/hdupass.jpg

Those who follow Bible God seem to go against the precedent set by nature and are thus acting un-naturally.
The God of any animal is one of it's own.
The God of ants is an ant.
The God of lions is a lion.
It follows then that the God of men should be a man.
No other animal, other than man, has taken the notion that it's God should be some alien or an entity of other than it's own kind.

http://imgur.com/3C7G1

As to Muslims, their fundamentalists have worked hard in killing those who would make fun of their particular God Allah and his prophet Mohamed and in the real world, I would perhaps refrain from jokes but in the anonymity of this place, I cannot help myself so I offer a picture of Mohamed as he would appear today.

http://imgur.com/a/451CM

In the voice of Achmed the terrorist, I beg you. Don’t kill me.

Jeff Dunham - Achmed the Dead Terrorist - YouTube

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 03:03 PM

Was our first God a man? Should our last be as well?

In reading a bit of history, you will find that the ancient men of power labeled themselves as Gods. Their progeny were called sons of God. I am not clear as to why Emperors and Kings did this. Either to compete with the other Gods or to displace past older Gods. I am not sure. Perhaps people had already started to think of God and laws as the same thing.

Scriptures tell us in John 1 that. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh.
To me, this means that the notion of the word/law was replaced by a leader/God and the consensus required to formalize the laws/God/word. Many thing that the word/flesh was Jesus but this obviously cannot be because Jesus is the N T God and this is way in the beginning of the O T.

My conclusion, based on nature and how the ancients would have perhaps seen it, follows this logic trail.

The God of any animal is one of it’s own.
The God of ants is an ant.
The God of lions is a lion.
It follows then that the God of men should be a man.
No other animal, other than man, has taken the notion that it’s God should be some alien or an entity of other than it‘s own kind.

In terms of society, we have always followed men. Be they men of wealth, politics or religion, men have always been the ones to decide policies and the laws we follow. Today, most recognize that the laws in scripture are man made.
There are always the mentally lazy, literalists and fundamentals, who will foolishly believe that the word of God, the Bible was actually written or inspired by God. Most of intelligence will know otherwise. God would not start his word with a talking serpent and his cursing the earth that he just created. God is not that stupid. Only his literalist sheeple are.

Why we ever decided to chase after some invisible, absentee, super, miracle working God we may never know. The past hides it’s secrets well. Most Eastern religions recognize the myth base of their beliefs. Mostly, it is the Western Abrahamic religions, including Islam, that for some reason decided to literalize scripture and give historicity to it’s God and Jesus even as the originators of the Bible, the Jews and Hebrews. Any who have studied the older religious traditions will know that the Bible is a plagiarized account of many of the older religions. This is well documented.

Genesis tells us that A & E became as Gods. History tells us that many ancient men of power took that same title. Islam has Allah as a tile meaning God, a title. We have always followed the laws written by men and if I stretch my imagination I could even wonder if these men were inspired somehow.

Is it likely that we have misinterpreted the meaning in our ancient books and that the ideal God is supposed to be an abstract entity who we are not ever supposed to find. Is God, the word, just supposed to be a set of rules. I believe so. As interpreted by one man. Remember that that is all Moses came down the mountain with . Words and rules.

We are heading towards a new world order. This is being let by the U N and the World Monetary Fund. The political world will have it’s God/man but if the religious world remains fractured, it will be sucked up by secular forces. This is inevitable to my mind unless religionists unite somehow under a new God.

Recognizing that A & E and thus all of mankind can be as Gods, is it not likely that our first God was a man of power?
Should we not now, since it looks like the world is on some kind of brink, consider doing what revelation indicates is to happen at end time, and elect ourselves a new God and give him power?

Was our first God a man?
Should we have a new man, as God, in this time?

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 03:04 PM

I have no problem explaining evil. Do you?

This will explain the presence of evil for you if you recognize that you are an evolving creature.

I am a religionist who does not follow or believe in Bible God but in a sense, the Bible, if read right, shows God as doing evil so it can be said from it's POV that we are truly made in God's image. perhaps the ancients recognized this and we have forgotten. Perhaps that is why their invented God has such an evil streak. You have to read the Bible with blinders on if you can read it and not see the times where God acts in a purely evil way.

As to natural disasters, they are just that. They are not evil at all. For something to be called evil or a sin, it must have evil intent and nature has no intention. It just does what it does thoughtlessly and without emotion. No evil there.

I have no problem with explaining evil in man as well. God or no God.

We are evolving creatures and animals. Animals, as they evolve have only two choices they can make while living. Cooperate or compete. Cooperation can be seen as good and competing can be seen as evil. That is how we normally see things.

We also have no choice in this. We will and have to do one or the other and we usually do some of both every day whether we realize it or not.
This was also recognized in the past although they did not see evolution the way we see it today. They were right in saying that all men are born with evil in them but the religious accentuate the evil and not the good because evil brings in more $$$ and creates a dependence on the clergy as our $$$ are supposed to buy us forgiveness and a slot in heaven.

Religions, for this cause are unconscionable. God will send their hierarchies to hell for their actions.

Oops. there is no hell. Oh well. Perhaps they will get what they deserve here on earth.

Now. Knowing how evolution works, do you still have a problem with explaining the presence of evil?

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 03:04 PM

Why do you need for there to be a hell and Satan?

Statistics show that quite a few Christians and Catholics and Muslims believe in a Satan and a hell.

Does this explains why you demand that a burning torturous hell exist?

I though that it was just your love of hating the others that will not join your tribe but it may go to a deeper psychological need for your own exoneration of guilt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9qAq...eature=related

Does God Exist ? Albert Einstein - YouTube

IMPOV.
Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.
If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

You should think of hell just a bit and recognize that God would not create such an immoral construct. Lose your barbaric tribal mentality. We are in 2011, not 111.

'Hell' as an invention of the church - YouTube

Burke Lecture: John Shelby Spong - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9FKn...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTpJ8...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaL7C...eature=related

If the first link is not true, then what is your reason for ignoring all the good and moral reason that hell must not and should not exist?

Why would you have your God send, or allow, if you actually believe that we choose hell over God, to send souls to a hell?

Please do not give the B S reason of free will. Sending or allowing someone to go to hell eliminates free will in whatever scenario you can create.

Why do you need for there to be a hell and Satan?

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 03:05 PM

Did Jesus rejects O T God’s ways?

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
--Heb 8;7

Many believe that Jesus cancelled this following.

My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of my lips.
—Psalm 89:34

This means that God’s covenant is no longer ever lasting, if indeed it ever was, as he is shown as breaking it rather often in the O T as he goes about negating our free will by killing many of us and ignoring the dominion he gave us.

We see Jesus rejecting O T God’s rather draconian and genocidal tendencies against sinners. The new attitude Jesus preached is to now love all sinners and of course, he would not kill or send to hell those he says he loves. This is not at all like the O T God does.

Is this God, now under the name of Jesus evolving?
Changing his ways after realizing that OT God was going against scripture?
Is Jesus trying to teach O T God that---

Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Did Jesus recognize that murdering and genocide as a way of teaching lessons was not working and perhaps should never have been done?

"I, even I am the LORD and beside me there is no Saviour." Is.43:11

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.---John 14;6

Jesus seems to now be completely rejecting the old O T God and placing himself above what was the Trinity and usurping their power to judge. Rather more like a Gnostic Christian Jesus than the traditional Christian.

Many literalists and fundamentals seem to cherish the O T genocidal God and they do not reject him the way Jesus seems to.

If you are a literalist or fundamental, should you too reject the O T God and embrace the softer gentler and kinder Jesus?

If so, then you would also need to reject the notions of an end time where Jesus is to return to hurt non believers as well. This way, the hell that Jesus was to do away with can also be discarded as non existent and give success to his sacrifice.

The old tribal ways are thus rejected and we all inherit the kingdom of God as a loving God would want instead of some of us being sent to eternal torture or death.

After all, doing so would give meaning to this----

Hosea 1:10
Ye are the sons of the living God.
Ps 82:6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.

Because we can all believe that a loving God would never condemn his son when, as we know, God can cure any defects and an omnipotent God with infinite persuasion powers would not have anyone whom he cannot convert.

Thoughts?

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 03:06 PM

Would a loving Jesus or God wait this long before reappearing?

Jesus would know and live in the same kind of time frame as you and I. He would perceives time as you and I do.

He has been gone, to some, and to himself, for 2000 years. To others, who see Jesus as an archetype, much longer. Back to Egypt and Sumer. I am of this group and see Jesus born in the 4th millennium BC. That or he was what, the 7th bastard son of God. God forbid.

The God I know is a good God and I recognize that you think your God is a good God as well.
I want to highlight here that the word God also represents your political God as defined as whatever set of rules you follow day to day. Atheists can thus have a God without it being an insult, as well as all other peoples.

Defining the word good, in God’s absence, is quite the chore as our self pride tries to make us all lower case g Gods. A good thing.

I suggest that God and Jesus are progressively less good and more cruel, over time, if he or they do not reappear. That would be immoral and God cannot be immoral.
That confirms to my mind, that reading Jesus as an archetype, is the right way to read scripture. Otherwise, Jesus and or God, are shown to be immoral constructs.

I suggest that God and or Jesus, real or not, have broken their covenant with mankind.

As we speak, 6 million starve to death yearly. 1 holocaust per year my friends. No God or Jesus who wants to be seen as having relevance, kindness or mercy for mankind, would be waiting in the wings as this and other carnage ravages the human race. No way.

God on Trial: The Verdict - YouTube

God began to break his covenant with mankind in Eden by cursing the earth and has progressively pulled further back and lives up to at least one small part of the covenant but allowing, if you please, man kind their Dominion.

It is no wonder that Bible God will have no one above him. No one can stoop that low.

God is dead.
Thank God, God is dead.
Long live God.

God as defined as a set of rules that is, thus all benefit as secularism leads the way to better rules.

God became the Word. The word is Secular.

Would a loving Jesus or God wait this long before reappearing?
Would he continue to allow a new holocaust every year?

Regards
DL

Tractors4u

09-13-2011, 03:08 PM

I'm getting bored now. If someone would like to take over, feel free. I made it through page 12. http://www.sciforums.com/search.php?searchid=5979800&pp=25&page=12

Dargo

09-13-2011, 03:28 PM

I'm getting bored now. If someone would like to take over, feel free. I made it through page 12. http://www.sciforums.com/search.php?searchid=5979800&pp=25&page=12

Great job. Now I think we need to start another area in the forum for "People in Insane Asylums who have Internet Access." That would be the only appropriate place for this mentally disturbed and socially inept person to post. Either that, or delete everything posted by him and just ban him as a spammer. Either one would be appropriate.

Dargo

09-13-2011, 03:32 PM

Lunatic Fringe

Catavenger

09-13-2011, 04:37 PM

From my point of view G.I.A. actually does believe in God but apparently hates God and thinks that he can do a better job than God.
When Christ died for our sins according to G.I.A. he is somehow "commiting suicide." If a human in time of war throws himself on top of a hand grenade to save a group of people is that "suicide?" To me it is instead COURAGE. I don't believe that G.I.A. believes in courage and self sacrifice.
G.I.A. seems to think that we should not accept Christ's sacrifice but should somehow try to reach perfection on our own. Good luck with that. How many of you here are perfect? Should God have then made us each perfect like little robots? Or should God have given us freewill?

As for Hell: Hell was created for Satan and his demons it is up to humantity to either join Satan there of our own FREEWILL or to join God in Heaven.

I See that many here are getting sick of G.I.A. with his provocative name and (stolen) picture of the snake (satan's symbol) as his avatar.

I am not quite willing to give up on him yet if he will stop the name calling like saying I am just a dumb kid who wouldn't understand etc. I will be willing to debate him to the best of my admittedly limited ability.