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bczoom
01-18-2006, 08:56 PM
I need some help please.

The setup is a PC connected to a monitor or projector. Right now, the projector is connected but it's hard to see when sitting at the PC.

I guess they don't have an A/B switch for video selection so I need a dual display video card.

Any thoughts/recommendations? I saw them in the store for $100 or on e-bay for as low as 99 cents.

What's the difference or what is really needed? The projector is for watching movies, monitor is for PC apps (but no real gaming).

Thanks

OkeeDon
01-18-2006, 09:35 PM
Is it a desktop? Does it have any open slots? When I had my business I had a computerized point of sale system; it used a standard PC with a cash drawer, bar code reader, credit card swiper, receipt printer and a register display pole attached to the computer. I needed to control two displays; the standard monitor and the customer price display. I was able to add a second video controller that was really cheap. It's been a while since I had the system running, but I think it only worked with a system that already had a separate display controller, not with a video controller embedded on the mother board.

bczoom
01-18-2006, 09:52 PM
It's been a while since I had the system running, but I think it only worked with a system that already had a separate display controller, not with a video controller embedded on the mother board.
Don,

Thanks. How do I tell which way the video controller is setup (separate or embedded)?

It is a desktop.

I'm going to go look at the computer tomorrow. I'll check for an open slot. I had him look at the back of his PC and his description sounds like he has a standard video card.

He takes a lot of pictures and the projector will be used mainly for slide shows. It doesn't sound like he'll be using for movies much.

OregonAlex
01-18-2006, 09:56 PM
I need some help please.

The setup is a PC connected to a monitor or projector. Right now, the projector is connected but it's hard to see when sitting at the PC.

I guess they don't have an A/B switch for video selection so I need a dual display video card.

Any thoughts/recommendations? I saw them in the store for $100 or on e-bay for as low as 99 cents.

What's the difference or what is really needed? The projector is for watching movies, monitor is for PC apps (but no real gaming).

Thanks
Brian,

What I think you are describing here is "Mirror" video. I believe you should be able to simply insert ANY PCI based video card, in addition to your current Video card and ask the Operating System to Mirror to the second video card. I haven't done this on a PC in a while, but I think it should work. You might already have a PCI based Video card laying around someplace, if not they are really cheap but a little hard to find. A STANDARD Video these days in PC terms in NOT a PCI card anymore.. it is an AGP card.

If you had a Mac I could definately confirm that would work. You can use two video cards in a Mac for Mirror mode or in Expanded Desktop Mode where your desktop becomes twice as big.

Surely XP has similiar abilities.

bczoom
01-18-2006, 10:03 PM
I have about 5 spare computers laying around. I think I'll pull a card out and take it with me tomorrow and if he has a slot, pop it in there.

OregonAlex
01-18-2006, 10:11 PM
I have about 5 spare computers laying around. I think I'll pull a card out and take it with me tomorrow and if he has a slot, pop it in there.

:yum: I have about a dozen PC computers laying around myself. All violated in some way of their important pieces, RAM and HDD. Funny how that works.
I affectionately refer to them as PC carcasses. Good luck with your dual Video card effort.. just don't expect to play video games with lightening fast graphics when you get done.

bczoom
01-18-2006, 10:30 PM
OK,

Just got back from pulling a video card from a "carcass". :)

It has the standard 15-pin video connect but it also has (in the same shape) a 25 pin. What's that for?

Don,

I think I might have just answered my own question about embedded. The computers I have all have one huge strip of everything (printer, mouse, video, kb...) connected directly to the mother board. Is that what you're talking about?

OregonAlex
01-18-2006, 11:09 PM
OK,

Just got back from pulling a video card from a "carcass". :)

It has the standard 15-pin video connect but it also has (in the same shape) a 25 pin. What's that for?

Don,

I think I might have just answered my own question about embedded. The computers I have all have one huge strip of everything (printer, mouse, video, kb...) connected directly to the mother board. Is that what you're talking about?

Brian,

The 25 pin connector can be many things. It can be an Apple video connector, yes.. remember Apple wasnt always VGA friendly.. or it could be a connector used on Unix workstations (Sun, HP, etc). Does it have 3 funny looking coxial pins inside the 25 pin connector itself? That would be the later.

If the video input comes out the back of the motherboard then the video is embedded. Check your BIOS to see if you have the ability to keep using the embedded or "onboard" video if you plug in a second video card into a slot. Sometimes the BIOS will automatically switch to the plug in video cards and disable the onboard/embedded video controller. That is not what you want.

Big Dog
01-18-2006, 11:14 PM
I used a Matrox G450 dual display (64MB) card with two 19" monitors for years, very good for the money $45. It actually has two port connections for each display. I now run a Radeon with a analog and digital connection. If you have two analog displays (or two digital) it requires a split adapter.

Most new cards today of 128mb or better have dual capability. Most people don't know that all you have to do it buy the adapter and you can run dual display. The adapter wouldn't be needed if you run one analog and one digital monitor.

BTW........I highly recommend dual display, for programming it's a must!

15 pin = analog
24, 27 or 28 pin = digital

OregonAlex
01-19-2006, 12:10 AM
Hey Brian

If you have one of those cards that Big Dog describes in one of your Carcass machine then I would appreciate taking it off your hands. LOL. But I don't think you have one of those being that we are looking for a PCI based card.

Spiffy1
01-19-2006, 12:15 AM
The adapter wouldn't be needed if you run one analog and one digital monitor.

Great idea! Of course, right now I don't have room for a second monitor, so it has to wait.

bczoom
01-19-2006, 08:25 AM
Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8752088930) is an item on e-bay that matches what I pulled out of one of my computers last night.
Think I can just plug this in and see what the computer finds for new hardware?

bczoom
01-19-2006, 10:23 AM
Will I need any kind of CD to load the video driver or will this card be plug-and-play?

Big Dog
01-19-2006, 11:06 AM
That card should be plug and play but I'm pretty sure this will only mirror your display. I don't think you'll be able to use it as a expanded desktop or second window display. You might try "Hydrovision" free software if it does not!

http://www.ati.com/products/Hydravision/

If you do need a driver, it's free on the Matrox website or Driver Guide website!

OregonAlex
01-19-2006, 11:50 AM
Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8752088930) is an item on e-bay that matches what I pulled out of one of my computers last night.
Think I can just plug this in and see what the computer finds for new hardware?

Brian,

Then in that case I believe that 25 pin connection gives you composite out as in TV.

bczoom
01-19-2006, 11:57 AM
Thanks Greg,

He only needs mirror display.

Spiffy1
01-19-2006, 12:03 PM
Dumb question, but what do you use mirror display for? I have found dual monitors quite usefull for looking into the details of something while working on the larger picture, but can't quite see the advantage of mirror.:confused: Thanks!

OkeeDon
01-19-2006, 12:45 PM
By the way, zoom, I'm sure you're aware that most laptops have the ability to utilize a separate monitor or projector as a mirror display at the same time the laptop screen is stll active. If they have a laptop around, that's the slickest solution.

bczoom
01-19-2006, 12:46 PM
The setup is a PC connected to a monitor and projector.
When the projector is connected, the monitor is unplugged. He can't even see the projector output from where the PC sits so he can't tell what's going on without having to leave his seat.

I was hoping to plug another card in so he can connect both the projector and monitor. Seeing the same thing on both is perfectly fine with him.

bczoom
01-19-2006, 12:55 PM
By the way, zoom, I'm sure you're aware that most laptops have the ability to utilize a separate monitor or projector as a mirror display at the same time the laptop screen is stll active. If they have a laptop around, that's the slickest solution.
Yea, I wish they did. I could have just hit Func + F8 (or whatever it is) and be done...

bczoom
01-19-2006, 03:20 PM
That card should be plug and play but I'm pretty sure this will only mirror your display.
If I now have 2 video cards, how does the OS know where to send the signal or will it automatically send to both?

DaveNay
01-19-2006, 03:22 PM
If I now have 2 video cards, how does the OS know where to send the signal or will it automatically send to both?

XP has built in support for multiple video cards. Plug it in and try it.

I can't remember if Win2K has it, but I think it does.

bczoom
01-19-2006, 03:30 PM
Thanks Dave.

I "think" he's running XP

OregonAlex
01-19-2006, 05:13 PM
If I now have 2 video cards, how does the OS know where to send the signal or will it automatically send to both?

Brian,

two parts at work here. BIOS AND OS

A) BIOS:
You will have to check the BIOS checking to make sure you know where video card it will use as the boot device. Make sure it continues to use your onboard/embedded video as the boot device. Many BIOS defaults are set to disable the onboard and switch to the one you plug in. That would be a bad thing as the OS might not want to turn the on board video card back on.

B) Windows 2000 and XP
Go into the Control panel.. and then click on Displays. This will control how both video cards are utilitized. ..and notice I said Windows 2000 here also.. yes it supported dual Video cards back in Win2k.

bczoom
01-19-2006, 07:42 PM
OK, I installed the card. After a couple reboots I have a display on the projector.

But... Although I see a full copy of the background, I can't see the desktop. I can only see applications/windows if I slide them off the right side of the primary screen.

Thoughts?
Is it because of some wide angle setting on the projector or is it trying to split the primary and 2nd screen. I can't find any settings other than "display what's on my primary monitor" (or something like that) in the Display/Settings.

OregonAlex
01-19-2006, 09:09 PM
OK, I installed the card. After a couple reboots I have a display on the projector.

But... Although I see a full copy of the background, I can't see the desktop. I can only see applications/windows if I slide them off the right side of the primary screen.

Thoughts?
Is it because of some wide angle setting on the projector or is it trying to split the primary and 2nd screen. I can't find any settings other than "display what's on my primary monitor" (or something like that) in the Display/Settings.


Look for a "Mirror" video setting. Like I said..in my original response to you. I know the Mac OS has this ability.. I am not sure about Windows however. "Surely it has a similiar capablity". remember?

bczoom
01-19-2006, 09:13 PM
I am not sure about Windows however. "Surely it has a similiar capablity". remember?
Thanks Alex but I looked all over, including (believe it or not) the help areas. :o

I just pulled out a spare monitor and will also take that to make sure it's not something to do with the wide angle of the projector.

DaveNay
01-19-2006, 09:24 PM
Thanks Alex but I looked all over, including (believe it or not) the help areas. :o

I just pulled out a spare monitor and will also take that to make sure it's not something to do with the wide angle of the projector.

Right Click on Desktop->Properties->Settings

There is a setting there called "Extend my Windows desktop onto this monitor", I think you want to make sure this is unchecked.

edit:
Sorry...looks like the "Extend..." option should be checked.

It sounds like this a presentation setup...check out this tip (http://www.powerpointanswers.com/article1026.html) for using PowerPoint with dual monitors.

OregonAlex
01-19-2006, 09:27 PM
Thanks Alex but I looked all over, including (believe it or not) the help areas. :o

I just pulled out a spare monitor and will also take that to make sure it's not something to do with the wide angle of the projector.

Well if XP can't do it natively then there is always the "buy" software route. This will give Bob's total cost of ownership theory (Mac vs PC) some more weight.

http://www.realtimesoft.com/ultramon/tour/mirroring.asp $40.. But it has a free trial, prior to purchase, to see if it does what you want.

good luck

bczoom
01-19-2006, 09:30 PM
Right Click on Desktop->Properties->Settings

There is a setting there called "Extend my Windows desktop onto this monitor", I think you want to make sure this is unchecked.
Dave,

Do I do this on the 2nd monitor or the primary?
Sorry for all the stupid questions but he's up the road. I wish he had something faster than dial up so I can be more interactive with the forum while working on it.

If he only had a mainframe, I wouldn't have these issues....

OregonAlex
01-19-2006, 09:35 PM
I wish he had something faster than dial up so I can be more interactive with the forum while working on it.

Brian,

instant messaging? perhaps.

-Alex

bczoom
01-19-2006, 09:43 PM
Brian,

instant messaging? perhaps.

-Alex
He doesn't even have a working e-mail... Another thing on my list.
I don't have IM either. That's what this forum is for. Normally, I don't need instant.

OregonAlex
01-19-2006, 09:46 PM
let us know how that third party video SW package works for you.

bczoom
01-20-2006, 12:45 AM
OA,

It's midnight so I'm too tired to look it up but software may be needed.

"Dualview" is what XP is trying to tell me what to do. Unfortunately, what they're telling be to do on the PC doesn't work/exist.

OregonAlex
01-20-2006, 01:09 AM
well then maybe this commercial software is required. you can d/l it and try it out for free for 30 days.

http://www.realtimesoft.com/ultramon/tour/mirroring.asp

ddrane2115
01-20-2006, 06:32 AM
As long as you are using the correct inputs on the second monitor/screen etc, get a Matrox Marvel, or the Personal Cinema card, or the All in Wonder. All of these have dual monitor capabilities and will do cloning or extended desktop. We use them in our offices and work great.

bczoom
01-20-2006, 10:38 AM
OK,

Doing some reading and found a tidbit on the realtimesoft.com FAQ that said that cloning is limited to a single video card.

That's probably why I can't get it to work (as I'm using 2 cards).

Now I'm taking the software approach.
The Matrox Marvel (aka DualHead2Go???) is pricy at $169.
The All-in-Wonder is $180+
Hydravision - Not going to work. It comes bundled with the ATI boards (but I don't need any boards.

Ultramon - The winner (I think...). I've downloaded it and will give it a go. If it works, he can buy it.

Thanks!

Big Dog
01-20-2006, 02:12 PM
Brian,

Does your buddy have a AGP slot? Man you could get a cheap Matrox G450 and run mirror or expanded desktop, be cheap!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Matrox-Millenium-G450-dual-head-video-card-90-day-WRNTY_W0QQitemZ8754033700QQcategoryZ40160QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem

bczoom
01-20-2006, 03:05 PM
Brian,

Does your buddy have a AGP slot?
There was 1 but there's a modem in it.

I'm going to install that software on its 30-day trial and see what he thinks of it.

DaveNay
01-20-2006, 03:14 PM
There was 1 but there's a modem in it.

?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I think not.

bczoom
01-20-2006, 03:35 PM
Hell, I don't know Dave... :drink:

I've been programming (mainframe) computers for 20 years. I pay no attention to what's behind the curtain. :pat: :whistle:

There was 1 slot in there that was shorter than the rest. Looking at the mounting of the card BD posted, I would have guessed it would have gone in there. That card had 2 phone jacks on it... :confused:

DaveNay
01-20-2006, 03:38 PM
There was 1 slot in there that was shorter than the rest. Looking at the mounting of the card BD posted, I would have guessed it would have gone in there. That card had 2 phone jacks on it... :confused:

Probably an AMR slot. (Audio Modem Riser). They were around for a short time about 5 years ago.

Big Dog
01-20-2006, 05:00 PM
Hell, I don't know Dave... :drink:

I've been programming (mainframe) computers for 20 years. I pay no attention to what's behind the curtain. :pat: :whistle:

There was 1 slot in there that was shorter than the rest. Looking at the mounting of the card BD posted, I would have guessed it would have gone in there. That card had 2 phone jacks on it... :confused:

How old is this machine Brian and is it AT or ATX? I can't for the life of me believe that PC doesn't have a AGP slot. It's a loner, usually brown in color beside the #1 PCI slot and set farther towards the center of the board than the PCI's. If that machine doesn't have it the motherboards gotta be old. Let me know if you need a hand......!

bczoom
01-20-2006, 07:31 PM
The machine is pretty new.
Running XP and looks like a new box (but it's reaaaallllllyyyyyy slow).
I might pull it apart again tomorrow and take a closer look at the inside. Hopefully catch a pic.

OregonAlex
01-20-2006, 07:37 PM
How old is this machine Brian and is it AT or ATX? I can't for the life of me believe that PC doesn't have a AGP slot. It's a loner, usually brown in color beside the #1 PCI slot and set farther towards the center of the board than the PCI's. If that machine doesn't have it the motherboards gotta be old. Let me know if you need a hand......!

BigDog,

His machine does have AGP. it is run internally to his onboard/embedded video. Not so unusual. The fact that is has a AMR slot tells me it could be micro-ATX form factor MB and being a Micro-ATX who's goal was to be a small MB in the first place, putting in an AGP slot on board when you already have an AGP graphics controller on board goes against that goal.
Just my guess.


-Alex
Clueless Mac User

Big Dog
01-20-2006, 08:27 PM
BigDog,

His machine does have AGP. it is run internally to his onboard/embedded video. Not so unusual. The fact that is has a AMR slot tells me it could be micro-ATX form factor MB and being a Micro-ATX who's goal was to be a small MB in the first place, putting in an AGP slot on board when you already have an AGP graphics controller on board goes against that goal.
Just my guess.


-Alex
Clueless Mac User

Wasn't thinking of on board video but you should be able to disable! Wouldn't do any good if you don't have a AGP slot though!

OregonAlex
01-20-2006, 08:33 PM
Wasn't thinking of on board video but you should be able to disable! Wouldn't do any good if you don't have a AGP though!
Although AGP is based on PCI (..but clocking accuring on both rising and falling edge of the clock), the loading requirements of AGP don't allow for a shared bus architecture as it only allows for one device. Disabling the onboard AGP won't do you any good. It is essentialy point to point, not a shared bus. In order to do what you ask the North Bridge would have to have two AGP "buses" on it. Including the PCI bus.

Big Dog
01-20-2006, 08:36 PM
Although AGP is based on PCI (which clocking accuring on both rising and follwing edge of the clock), the loading requirements of AGP don't allow for a shared bus architecture as it only allows for one device. Disabling the onboard AGP won't do you any good. It is essentialy point to point, not a shared bus. In order to do what you ask the North Bridge would have to have two AGP "buses" on it. Including the PCI bus.

I'm out of my league now............but Alex could he get a split adapter?

(http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=519405)

OregonAlex
01-20-2006, 08:42 PM
I'm out of my league now............but Alex could he get a split adapter?

yep.. sure that would be another possibility.. if he doesn't mind running his monitor at the same resolution and refresh rate as his projector's maximum capabilities.

this is where that software package has its strength. You can mirror yet run each video card at different resolutions and refresh rates.

Big Dog
01-20-2006, 08:45 PM
yep.. sure that would be another possibility.. if he doesn't mind running his monitor at the same resolution and refresh rate as his projector's maximum capabilities.

OK, Brian here ..................

http://www.ramplus.com/vgavidsplitc.html

bczoom
01-20-2006, 08:45 PM
Is that the little splitter box?

Something like this? (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5786329447&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1)

Saving that as a near last resort.

OregonAlex
01-20-2006, 08:49 PM
before you go out and buy that splitter..

just make sure you understand exactly what I said about running your main monitor at the same refresh rate and resolution as your max projector capabilities.

bczoom
01-20-2006, 08:53 PM
before you go out and buy that splitter..

just make sure you understand exactly what I said about running your main monitor at the same refresh rate and resolution as your max projector capabilities.
If you're talking about the 600x800 at 60 hz, I currently have them both set the same with good results (although not 600x800). Is that what you mean?

BD,

Why couldn't I find that cable when I was looking for it????

OregonAlex
01-20-2006, 08:59 PM
If you're talking about the 600x800 at 60 hz, I currently have them both set the same with good results (although not 600x800). Is that what you mean?

BD,

Why couldn't I find that cable when I was looking for it????

Brian,

yep.. exactly.. If 800x600 and the flicker at 60hz is acceptable to your man then that cable is PERFECT!


As an added bonus you can yank the Video card out of there; freeing up your slot and returning it to its familiar resting spot. R.I.P.

bczoom
01-20-2006, 09:05 PM
What happens if I go up to 1024x768 (or whatever it is)

OregonAlex
01-20-2006, 09:14 PM
What happens if I go up to 1024x768 (or whatever it is)

that would be a question for your projector manual.. most likely if the projector doesn't support it, will not sync up and you will not see anything. Some newer projects down sample the input. So you can feed a 1280x1024@75 Mhz signal to it and it will convert it down to something it can display.

switch your current computer monitor it to using 800x600 @ 60 hz. See how long you can stand it.

Some people have their computers set to 60 Hz all the time.. when I try to use their computer to do something I just cant stand it. It would drive me mad. wait... too late.:yum:

Dargo
01-20-2006, 09:26 PM
Anything below about 75hz kills me; especially if you look just to the side of the monitor.

Big Dog
01-20-2006, 09:29 PM
If you're talking about the 600x800 at 60 hz, I currently have them both set the same with good results (although not 600x800). Is that what you mean?

BD,

Why couldn't I find that cable when I was looking for it????

I searched this........... VGA VIDEO SPLITTER

bczoom
01-21-2006, 10:23 PM
Well, I tried the software...

Got everything loaded and opened the main window to control mirroring and such and the window came up black... I could see the toolbar but there was absolutely nothing (but black) in the window itself.

I played around with all the other settings I could get to but still couldn't get it to work. :(

They have a forum so I may post a question there.

OregonAlex
01-22-2006, 04:47 AM
Good luck Brian. Keep us posted.

btw.. I wanted to appologize to anyone here if I came across as a know it all computer jerk. Reading Big Dog's post to Gatorboy the other day made me think about how I was coming across on the computer electronics stuff on FF. This is not how I want to come across. I guess I am a little too passionate about technology and am too quick to respond with my OPINION about subjects that interest me. My opinions are obvious just that. Just opinions but I have a tendancy go a little over the top with my detailed responses. I am working on holding my tongue and keeping my opinions, short and sweet without being overbearing.. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Big Dog
01-22-2006, 07:48 AM
Good luck Brian. Keep us posted.

btw.. I wanted to appologize to anyone here if I came across as a know it all computer jerk. Reading Big Dog's post to Gatorboy the other day made me think about how I was coming across on the computer electronics stuff on FF. This is not how I want to come across. I guess I am a little too passionate about technology and am too quick to respond with my OPINION about subjects that interest me. My opinions are obvious just that. Just opinions but I have a tendancy go a little over the top with my detailed responses. I am working on holding my tongue and keeping my opinions, short and sweet without being overbearing.. Sorry if I offended anyone.

No offense, I've built many machines and don't have near the knowledge you have! Keep it up! Now I know where to go for help....:D, and believe me you have no where near the tact GB has........:yum:

OregonAlex
01-22-2006, 10:08 AM
No offense, I've built many machines and don't have near the knowledge you have! Keep it up! Now I know where to go for help....:D, and believe me you have no where near the tact GB has........:yum:


I am a Mac guy.. really.. I am very rusty on my PC knowledge.. I couldn't even tell you if XP had the "mirror" feature native or not.

...that seems to work most of the time with my relatives.

bczoom
01-22-2006, 10:47 AM
I am working on holding my tongue and keeping my opinions, short and sweet without being overbearing.. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Absolutely no offense taken!!! I really appreciate the help all of you have been providing.